The AI in Edain 4.0

[Kastorus]

As you wish but remember I told you to try hard first   

[Elite KryPtik]

Holy sweet fuck did that ever suck. Well I played against a Brutal Gondor as Isengard with a 1k start. I wouldn't call it difficult so much as REALLY tedious. I did win 1st try, after about 4 hours of back and forth with that bastard. All you have to do is survive the first 20 minutes and the massive first rush that comes, which includes all of Gondor's heroes in it. Also realize that you won't hold any outside farms, all you can do is keep him at a choke until you have all of your heroes and summon powers, then you can push for his base. I'm never doing that again. When you play on maps meant to hold 6 players, play with 6 players, because otherwise the Brutal's inhuman harassment and unit spam will drive you to drink.
Now that I did your challenge, I feel its only fair that you do my challenge. I already posted it, but here it is again. Play as Gondor against brutal Isengard on Fords of Isen I, with a 1k start. I guarantee you that you will not survive.

[Kastorus]

Very well gonna try against insegard as gondor and good job that u won that match  but still I like those type of games that are long its fun atleast for me.

[Elite KryPtik]

The problem is that I had him in situations at least 3 times where against a human opponent I would have won. But Brutals don't give a fuck about economy, so even destroying their bases barely affects them. I like long games too, if its truly a game where I'm barely holding my own. In a situation where I should have won 3 times however, it becomes extremely repetitive and frustrating. Don't forget that the map for Gondor vs Isengard is Fords of Isen I, with starting money of 1k. I tried at least 8 times and not matter what BO I did, I always lost. I only finally beat him when I had a 4k start, and even then it was just barely.

[Gnomi]

The AI gives a fuck about their economy. They still have to pay for everything, they just get everything much cheaper.

As said:
Brutal means brutal and you can't expect to win against this AI. This is not only in this game like that - it's in many games similar. Our goal was something like that:
Easy - good enemy against beginners, they can win, but also can loose
Medium - stronger than easy, if you play from time to time and don't spam games you should be able to handle this AI most of the times
Hard - really hard for players who aren't playing often and a normal enemy for players who play a lot (means: you win most of the games, but can also loose)
Brutal: well... you die if you don't play much better and you have to expect hundreds over hundreds of units. Don't expect a fair game.

In nearly every game the AI cheats, have you played f.e. AoE? You never played against hard enemies as normal player, as it can spam much more than you.
Just don't play against brutal, but therefore against hard, when you think that brutal cheats too much for you.^^ Many people like to fight the brutal AI and win - and as long as there are weaker AIs for people who don't want such unfair battles, I think that there are no problems.

[Kastorus]

Alright so I tried Fords of Isen I with 1k start and well..managed to win at start but only for about 10 minutes wanted to push isengard to get more farms outside of my castle but that was a big mistake they killed my whole army and then their ballistas came which was end for me gonna try more later.
Gnomi well Im glad that Brutal is really hard but the problem is that they arent cheating enough on some maps and so they are easy to defeat and on some maps its really hard and thats sometimes sad because I've to play on maps where they are good and cant play on maps where I want to like Old Brown Lands, Mirkwood, Lebennin, Anorien they are weak on most maps and also problem is that brutal is using siege machines only on castle maps not on maps with camps I understand that its not so important like on castle maps but still they dont even care about your defence when they are attacking your castle atleast they dont care about towers also siege machines are powerful even on camp maps and also Isengard isnt using ladders and mines and mordor isnt using siege towers which is also a disadvantage for them but the thing I wanted to say is that I like unfair games just they arent so unfair everywhere. 

[Elite KryPtik]

The AI gives a fuck about their economy. They still have to pay for everything, they just get everything much cheaper.

As said:
Brutal means brutal and you can't expect to win against this AI. This is not only in this game like that - it's in many games similar. Our goal was something like that:
Easy - good enemy against beginners, they can win, but also can loose
Medium - stronger than easy, if you play from time to time and don't spam games you should be able to handle this AI most of the times
Hard - really hard for players who aren't playing often and a normal enemy for players who play a lot (means: you win most of the games, but can also loose)
Brutal: well... you die if you don't play much better and you have to expect hundreds over hundreds of units. Don't expect a fair game.

In nearly every game the AI cheats, have you played f.e. AoE? You never played against hard enemies as normal player, as it can spam much more than you.
Just don't play against brutal, but therefore against hard, when you think that brutal cheats too much for you.^^ Many people like to fight the brutal AI and win - and as long as there are weaker AIs for people who don't want such unfair battles, I think that there are no problems.

Hey Gnomi, please don't get the wrong idea! I'm agreeing with you and Kastorus, in 99% of maps the Brutals are too easy. However, with rare matchups, the only one that I have found so far is 1v1 playing as Gondor against brutal Isengard on Fords of Isen I with a 1K start, it is literally impossible to win. Try it if you don't believe me, it doesn't matter what you do, you cannot win unless the AI does something miraculously stupid. Gondors early game is too weak to match brutal Isengard in this case.

I normally have very little trouble beating brutal AI, in fact I played against brutal AI on every single 2 player map up until Fords of Isen I without losing. So if it is impossible for me to do then I think there is a problem, I'm not saying that it should be easy. I absolutely agree that the Brutal should be able to cheat and get many more units, but when its literally impossible to win, then there is a problem. That was my point about this matchup 

The only thing that I legitimately hate about the Brutal AI is their love of siege weapons, and their STUPID handling of them. No real player makes 10+ ballistas and battering rams to take down a base, and they especially don't send those siege weapons alone and unguarded, as the AI often does. I wish they would make real attacks more often, which are mostly army with a few siege weapons in back to bust down walls.

[Elite KryPtik]

Alright so I tried Fords of Isen I with 1k start and well..managed to win at start but only for about 10 minutes wanted to push isengard to get more farms outside of my castle but that was a big mistake they killed my whole army and then their ballistas came which was end for me gonna try more later.

Yup, that's what kept happening to me. I kept my outside farms alive for like 10 minutes, then the Brutal comes with all of their damn heroes and a huge army, kills your army, breaks your gate and GG. Keep trying if you want, but  I'm convinced there is no way to survive this.

[Kastorus]

I've some good news for you kryptik, just won against brutal on Fords of Isen I with 1k start as gondor against Isengard on 2nd try wasnt that hard as I thought it'll be but I won only because Fiefdom armies they're kinda op with upgrades and AI doesnt care about your farms at left corner so I build 2 beacons there and after that it was easy. Fiefdom armies with forged blades and 2 lvl oh and ofc I had that power from spellbook I focused on getting that asap and after I got that I tried to lvl them up to 5 then I got gandalf,aragorn and boromir and more fiefdom armies and because I was killing everything they sent they didnt had money for upgrades atleast not for forged blades I think I saw some heavy armor but that isnt enough for my fully upgraded fiefdom army I had 2 citadel guards I think and thats all everything else was from beacon, try it yourself just send some cheap units to destroy ballistas and keep your good units defending till you have a lot of them and then push him get more beacons who cares about farms beacons rulez for gondor. 

[Elite KryPtik]

What was your starter build? I usually get Pippin a farm and a beacon. I didn't know he would ignore settlements in what I presume you meant was the bottom left corner, as he makes an outpost there pretty fast. If he ignores the bottom left entirely then that's the massive flaw in the AI that I said was needed to win in my response to Gnomi  Anyways I already beat him with 4k, I don't want to relive the experience, as it was not at all pleasant for me. I'm glad you found a way to beat the bastard with 1k though, it gives me indirect revenge 

[Kastorus]

Yea I meant bottom left corner and about starter build well who needs pipin?  Maybe it was just luck because he was focusing all his troops to destroy me and he tried to destroy my beacons few times and succeded once or twice but I build them again one battalion guarding it there was enough and also Isengard has bugged outpost so its still easier then it should be because he just builds it and thats all no buildings otherwise it would be much more difficult on this map but right now its easy with two beacons at the bottom but you have to keep him busy around your castle dont let him make more money spam gondor soldiers and pikeman as much as u can and after u get upgrades for your fiefdom army just push him make some heroes level them up build an outpost, battering rams and destroy him. 

[Sir_Stig]

Good god I can only imagine how difficult a brutal Isengard would be in their current state if they actually utilized outposts. I have a hard enough time without an additional 3 barracks!

[Elite KryPtik]

Forget that, think about the Steelworks and its upgrade buffs. Not a fun time 

[Kastorus]

How strong are units with those steelworks upgrades? Never survived that long with isengard to try and AI doesnt build steelworks. So are those upgrade useful or not?

[Elite KryPtik]

All I know is when I get a fully upgraded army with Isengard against a Brutal AI with the Steelwork's upgrades, I can't die. I don't even use siege at that point, just army rush with troops combined with Shieldbearers and full upgrades. This will destroy any other army in a standing fight.