My thoughts on balance

[Elite KryPtik]

Ok, so I finally got Tunngle set up and working. It is inferior to gameranger in every way, and I don't understand why the team supports an inferior program, but I digress :/

I played about 10 matches against other people today, several 1v1s and 2v2s, as well as a 3v3 match, here are my observations.

Firstly, every single game I where I played as an evil faction against Rohan, without fail, I was rushed by heroes, from people building statues to discount the heroes. Both Isengard and Mordor are laughably vulnerable against this, Mordor moreso than Isengard. As Mordor I don't see a way of defending against it, seems like game over no matter what if Rohan hero rushes a mordor early game. The reason for this is most of Mordor's heroes cannot level up from kills, and so they are extremely weak early game against enemy heroes, who will have leveled up from creeps. For Isengard, their troops are a little stronger, so they can hold, but that's it. Being stuck in your base all game inevitably leads to defeat. The price of the statues needs to be raised to counter this, I suggest to 300. That way the statues would still be useful mid game,  to discount hero revival costs, and people wouldn't be able to buy every single hero within 10 minutes.

Next, Ered Luin dwarves are massively OP. If you focus on getting veterans and heroes, and giving the heroes Mithril Vests and runes from Balin, they can destroy entire armies with ease. I don't really know how to balance this, maybe make it so that instead of the ponies spawning they have to be bought for say, 300? I don't think the mithril should be nerfed, just made harder to get.

Next, Isengard late game is ridiculously OP. The only faction which stands a chance against them once they have all their upgrades are the dwarves, and even that is an incredibly tough fight. Since Isengard gets so many different income boosts, the easiest way to balance their late game would be to increase the cost of their more powerful upgrades. All the upgrades at the Steelworks should cost 2k to research, the cost of machinery of war should be increased to 1500 for the first one, and 2500 for the 2nd one. The cost of upgrades on units should be increased greatly as well, especially the captain, who as far as I can tell is the reason why uruks late game are so OP. It should cost at least 1000 to equip him to a unit. The research prices at the armory are ok, but to equip upgrades on a unit should be increased, so that if a player has a full discount from 6 level 3 furnaces it still costs 500 for Forged Blades and Heavy Armor. This is how its done in BFME1, and the balance is perfect in that game.

Finally, Rohan. This has already been heavily discussed, but right now they essentially have nothing for late game, especially against Isengard. Also, since the effectiveness of counter units has been increased, and they die easier to pikes, this essentially neuters them. They need some new infantry and archers, probably the easiest thing would be to make the Royal Guard and Royal Archers buildable from the archery range level 3, so that they could make a dent in the enemies pikes before your cavalry charge. Another idea would be to make Hama's royal guard summon permanent. If the only way to win as Rohan online is to hero rush then I won't be playing with them online anymore.

On the whole, I sadly cannot say I enjoyed myself, except the 2 times I played as the OP dwarves. I have a lot more fun fighting against brutals offline. But I'm not going to give up, I'll keep playing and hopefully discover some counter strategies to the stupid hero rush meta. Looking forward to new factions and balance patches

[ziqing]

Do you play 1000 open or 4000?

[Elite KryPtik]

1k is the standard for most edain players

[vados202]

If you play with 4000, then the situation will be even worse, with the characters just the trouble. You need to either raise the price of the statues, as suggested by TC, or strengthen the Nazgul.

[ziqing]

Or they could just limit the maximum of statues in one settlement, two would be appropriate, and the statue will have influence for all area inside the settlement

[Elite KryPtik]

Or they could increase the number of statues required to get a high discount on heroes, or to the opposite and reduce the maximum bonus you can get with 5 statues to like 30% off. There are lots of different ways to go about it.

[ziqing]

Or they could increase the number of statues required to get a high discount on heroes, or to the opposite and reduce the maximum bonus you can get with 5 statues to like 30% off. There are lots of different ways to go about it.

The problem is we should also consider the use of statue in late game, when there is not so many free slots to build statue, it is already kind of useless for late game.

That Rohan hero rush thing is an irregular tactic, I am pretty sure it is not the design intention of the team

[Elite KryPtik]

Well if its irregular, then I'm damn unlucky, cus it happened to me at least 5 times.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

Using statues to rush heroes is textbook laming. Unfortunately, it seems that once somebody discovers a new method of laming, everybody starts using it instead of just playing without it, which would be much more fun.

[Adrigabbro]

You're right, it's not very funny for the player, neither is it for the opponents.
However, I believe a simple balance change won't be enough: either it will remain overpowered, or either statues won't be used at all anymore because right now it's their only use. Indeed, why would you want to sacrifice one build plot for a leadership you'll barely make any use of it?
Some times ago, someone came up with the idea of new build plots for statues/wells inside the main base. I think it is an idea that is worth considering.

[Elite KryPtik]

I think ziging's idea is the best, have the statue give leadership to everybody inside the base, same for the well, and increase the cost to like 300 per statue. That way, the statues could still be used late game to get discounts on the revival cost of heroes, and it would be worth building for the leadership on the off chance all of your leadership heroes are dead.

As for having separate build plots for statues and wells, the Dwarves have this as a unique feature, so to give it to all good factions would mean the Dwarves need a new unique feature. I think having it on main build plots makes the most sense.

I agree that hero rushing is lame, and I wish it wouldn't have happened on my first time playing against other humans. I suppose it could perhaps be countered by Cirith Ungol units for Mordor, and Lurtz/Ugluk with crossbowmen for Isengard, but its still a pretty lame strategy.

[ziqing]

As for having separate build plots for statues and wells, the Dwarves have this as a unique feature, so to give it to all good factions would mean the Dwarves need a new unique feature. I think having it on main build plots makes the most sense.

I think Mordor also have extra slots for building near the Citadel?

We'll lower the cost decrease to -30% at most with four statues and increase their cost to 150. We don't want to nerf them too much though - the hero rush strategy sucks, but the fact remains that nobody used statues at all before. So we'll try to find a middle ground. The statue buff for units will also remain for 30 seconds after the unit has left the radius of the statue so it will be a bit easier to make use of.

Message from another thread, however I think we are just swaying between "lame strategy" and "totally useless building". There is actually other way to limit Rohan hero rush, make heroes only recruitable from other buildings

[Elite KryPtik]

Glad to see the team has taken notice, and their plan seems reasonable, making it at most a 30% discount means that u cant get all the heroes straight away. As for Mordor having the build plots, those are a unique defence of Mordor, just like Isengard has the Wizard's Tower.

Also, I think that having the units from Cirith Ungol cost 0 command points is overpowered, this allows Mordor Armies to be biiger than anybody else's, especially considering Khamuls level 10 perasummon of Black Easterlings. I think that the units should cost 60 CP, and the archers 90, like for most other units.

[Draco100000]

Glad to see the team has taken notice, and their plan seems reasonable, making it at most a 30% discount means that u cant get all the heroes straight away. As for Mordor having the build plots, those are a unique defence of Mordor, just like Isengard has the Wizard's Tower.

Also, I think that having the units from Cirith Ungol cost 0 command points is overpowered, this allows Mordor Armies to be biiger than anybody else's, especially considering Khamuls level 10 perasummon of Black Easterlings. I think that the units should cost 60 CP, and the archers 90, like for most other units.

The armies of mordor are really weak that the main reason for your problems with rohan hero spam, so using only orcs is imposible to get enemie heros and troops, even outnumbering their rivals free barrack orcs are feed the enemie. The solution is Ungol. Ungol able the player to get heavy infantry (without cp cost) So this will allow to the player to get many orcs battallions and support them with ungol units. If you give cp to Ungol units, edain team will have to buff free orcs, because the armies of mordor would cant outnumber enemy armies with the result of the loose. I have played many matches, and Ungol seems the unique way to make a good armie and get some early superiority, giving them cp you only will make Mordor weaker, and it isnt needed i think.

[Elite KryPtik]

Having troops as strong as the ones from Cirith Ungol only cost the same as basic troops is fine for balance, just because they would cost CP doesn't mean they couldn't still counter the hero rush etc. What I'm talking about is really late game, its not fair that Mordor can literally get a bigger army then anybody else thanks to perma-summons and units that don't cost any CP. Being able to get an additional 9 battalions of units for no CP is ridiculous, especially when you take into account that late game a good Mordor player probably has the castellans, the Morgul Riders, and a number of summoned Haradrim and Easterlings, which are strong troops in their own right. If the ONLY troops Mordor could build was shitty free orcs then I would agree with you, but even the free orcs from Minas Morgul and Dol Guldur are fairly strong when combined with overseers. No units should cost 0 CP, its just not fair.

[Draco100000]

No units should cost 0 CP, its just not fair.

Ungol units can be used very well in all of the game fases, being troops with high armor and damage, also without cp cost. Well keep in mind that in Late game, if you had got an equal match you must be able to have almost your entire armie with upgrades. The upgrades makes your units far away more powerfull than Ungol units  (except the ungol archers). So they arent as important as you think, also mordor always will have more troops than you if the Mordor player is playing well, because all of the troops of Mordor have less health and damage than upgraded armies of other factions like gondor or Isengard, so ungol units are core units on Mid game and support units on late game, they dont need cp cost. maybe the archers ok, but halberediers and uruks dont need cp cost, or early game with mordor will be also very difficult to them.

[Adrigabbro]

I agree with Draco regarding his thoughts about early and mid game.
In addition, you're complaining that Mordor will have a bigger army in late game than everyone else; well, doesn't it make sense? I think it does.

[Elite KryPtik]

You seem to be forgetting the debuffs of the Nazgul, these make enemy armies pathetically weak, even with upgrades, while also removing enemy leaderships. When combined with all of the different stackable buffs that Mordor can get(Eye, Land, Darkness, Gothmog LD, Drummer Troll LD, etc), Cirith Ungol troops and all of Mordor's other troops become extremely strong, unless there are no Nazgul around. Having the Ungol units cost CP would not affect Mordor early game at all, you'd still be able to get them, just maybe a few less battalions of orcs, depending on how fast you get Pantry upgrades. I understand that having more units than the enemy is suiting for Mordor, but looking at this from a purely balance perspective, it is not balanced to have units cost 0 CP. Hell, I think that the basic orcs should be made only 30 CP and made so weak that any unit can 1 hit them, this would allow you to get the true spammy nature of Mordor instead of OP armies with 9 battalions, or more, than your enemy. The Cirith Ungol units used to cost CP, and Mordor played just fine while it was like this. I don't really understand why that's been changed.

[Walküre]

You seem to be forgetting the debuffs of the Nazgul, these make enemy armies pathetically weak, even with upgrades, while also removing enemy leaderships. When combined with all of the different stackable buffs that Mordor can get(Eye, Land, Darkness, Gothmog LD, Drummer Troll LD, etc), Cirith Ungol troops and all of Mordor's other troops become extremely strong, unless there are no Nazgul around. Having the Ungol units cost CP would not affect Mordor early game at all, you'd still be able to get them, just maybe a few less battalions of orcs, depending on how fast you get Pantry upgrades. I understand that having more units than the enemy is suiting for Mordor, but looking at this from a purely balance perspective, it is not balanced to have units cost 0 CP. Hell, I think that the basic orcs should be made only 30 CP and made so weak that any unit can 1 hit them, this would allow you to get the true spammy nature of Mordor instead of OP armies with 9 battalions, or more, than your enemy. The Cirith Ungol units used to cost CP, and Mordor played just fine while it was like this. I don't really understand why that's been changed.

I would say that I agree with you.
Even though the sort of 'spamming' nature of Mordor has always been one of its peculiar characteristics, justified both by the lore and some iconic elements of the previous BFME games, I find it kind of exaggerated making the Cirith Ungol units so useful and easy to recruit, considering how already tough and challenging they are by themselves, particularly in the early game.
And I would add that I also find it quite unfair that significant and effective leadership powers, especially the ones of leaders of factions (like Théoden or, in the future, Elrond), are totally made ineffective by the aura of the Ringwraiths (not to mention the other effects of enhancing spells made useless as well); it would be an interesting solution making the malus of the Nazgûl kind of 'selective', effective on some types of upgrades, but useless towards others.
But I am also aware that it could create many difficult and problematic scenarios of coding issues, and, subsequently, bugs.

[Draco100000]

You seem to be forgetting the debuffs of the Nazgul, these make enemy armies pathetically weak, even with upgrades, while also removing enemy leaderships. When combined with all of the different stackable buffs that Mordor can get(Eye, Land, Darkness, Gothmog LD, Drummer Troll LD, etc), Cirith Ungol troops and all of Mordor's other troops become extremely strong, unless there are no Nazgul around. Having the Ungol units cost CP would not affect Mordor early game at all, you'd still be able to get them, just maybe a few less battalions of orcs, depending on how fast you get Pantry upgrades. I understand that having more units than the enemy is suiting for Mordor, but looking at this from a purely balance perspective, it is not balanced to have units cost 0 CP. Hell, I think that the basic orcs should be made only 30 CP and made so weak that any unit can 1 hit them, this would allow you to get the true spammy nature of Mordor instead of OP armies with 9 battalions, or more, than your enemy. The Cirith Ungol units used to cost CP, and Mordor played just fine while it was like this. I don't really understand why that's been changed.

I would say that I agree with you.
Even though the sort of 'spamming' nature of Mordor has always been one of its peculiar characteristics, justified both by the lore and some iconic elements of the previous BFME games, I find it kind of exaggerated making the Cirith Ungol units so useful and easy to recruit, considering how already tough and challenging they are by themselves, particularly in the early game.
And I would add that I also find it quite unfair that significant and effective leadership powers, especially the ones of leaders of factions (like Théoden or, in the future, Elrond), are totally made ineffective by the aura of the Ringwraiths (not to mention the other effects of enhancing spells made useless as well); it would be an interesting solution making the malus of the Nazgûl kind of 'selective', effective on some types of upgrades, but useless towards others.
But I am also aware that it could create many difficult and problematic scenarios of coding issues, and, subsequently, bugs.

Have you ever  tried get an armie of standard orcs and get them for the entire match ( or at least more than 1 attack- defense) They simply die , make a bit damage and then die, so Ungol make the damage, and the orcs tank the arrows and the enemies. If you look colsely mordor matches, mordor player is the entire match getting free orcs. Why? because they die all the time, so ungol are units who support the hordes and bring you time to their recruitment, so giving ungol cp Cost you will lost your chance to get a very small advantage ( remember that Ungol requires a good planificated economy to get them, they are very expensive). And camon, Nazgul debuffs are nearly useless, you simply kick nazguls using hobbits and normal troops . Ungol, in the roleplaying of mordor is vital as well as it is now.

[Elite KryPtik]

Giving Cirith Ungol units a basic CP cost would not seriously affect the orc spam. Also, I don't know what you mean by the Nazgul debuff being useless, because its DAMN strong. All you need is a little bit of micro to keep them alive, and once they have their armor they can be close to unkillable. Also, I have played games making not much except for basic orcs, and I have pushed my opponent all the way to their base with this strategy, with no support but the Nazgul for debuffs. Finally, you keep bringing the argument back to early game, when my entire argument is based around late game. Early game would barely be affected at all, especially if the team would lower the cp cost of basic free orcs to 30. My point, as I keep stating, is that Mordors ability to get so many extra units late game is not fair, even if the bulk of those are free orcs (which as I've already stated, will almost never be the case with a skilled Mordor player) they are still free, and build at a fairly rapid pace. Basic fairness means that no race should ever be able to field more units than their command points can support, having units cost less CP than other units of that caliber(other elite infantry cost 90-120 CP, elite archers are always 120. I'm saying that the elite units of cirith ungol should cost 60/90 for archers) is a fair way to stay true to Mordor's spammy nature.

[Walküre]

Have you ever  tried get an armie of standard orcs and get them for the entire match ( or at least more than 1 attack- defense) They simply die , make a bit damage and then die, so Ungol make the damage, and the orcs tank the arrows and the enemies. If you look colsely mordor matches, mordor player is the entire match getting free orcs. Why? because they die all the time, so ungol are units who support the hordes and bring you time to their recruitment, so giving ungol cp Cost you will lost your chance to get a very small advantage ( remember that Ungol requires a good planificated economy to get them, they are very expensive). And camon, Nazgul debuffs are nearly useless, you simply kick nazguls using hobbits and normal troops . Ungol, in the roleplaying of mordor is vital as well as it is now.

No, you can not simply kill the Nazgûl 
Maybe you are underestimating the problem.
You have no idea of how vicious and treacherous is Mordor; it can use Fear, Poison, and Evil Influences to make your armies suffer and despair, and it also can taint lands, darken the Sky and make you revive the terrible memory of Gorthaur from the Elder Days.
Mordor is really dreadful 

The only powers that win the malicious aura of the Nazgûl are the ones that can make yourself or the surrounding units and heroes temporarily invincible; ergo Thorin or Galadriel 

[Skeeverboy]

Last match you have say to me: Khazad-Dûm are good from the balance, and now you say that the weakest fraction will more weaker? (sry my bad english )
When Mordor will be more weaker, it will be the badest faction of all. I think Mordor must be stronger and not weaker. Mordor needs the 0 CP Uruks, because they have no Upgrades.

[Elite KryPtik]

I didn't say that veterans are "good for balance" what I said was that they aren't OP if they aren't spammed. Just getting 2 or 3 squads so you can give mithril to your heroes is not a big deal in my view, but I do understand and recognize that they are stronger than they should be when it comes to armor and damage. Either they need to be made harder to get, or have the same method of getting them and nerf their stats.

Also, Mordor is not weak by any means, they are tied with Isengard for strongest faction, but they are the slowest faction to build up by far. Early game and mid game they are a little slow, but late game they are nothing short of a nightmare. Just like right now Rohan is an early game nightmare, and Gondor is a mid game nightmare. Each faction currently is strong at a certain point in the game. Also, I don't understand why you think giving Cirith Ungol units CP will ruin the faction or make it weaker, they used to cost CP and I would get them all the time. All it would mean is a few less worthless free orcs, which is not extremely significant.

[Skeeverboy]

At the moment Rohan and Dwarvens are the strongest faction. When Uruks cost CP Mordor has not enough for Orks and Trolls. So Mordor can't use his full potential.

[Elite KryPtik]

Which faction is strongest is subjective and dependent on the play style of the player, I believe Mordor and Isengard to be tied for strongest late game. This does not mean that the Dwarves are not also an extremely potent force on the battlefield late game, but Isengard units just, don't, die, when they have all their upgrades and leadership.

[Lord of Mordor]

The Ungol units are meant as a counterbalance to other factions' upgrades. They cost no CP much like it costs no CP to upgrade your tower guards with heavy armor and forged blades - and Gondor can do that with its whole army, while Ungol units are more limited. In terms of command point efficiency, an upgraded bataillon of Gondor soldiers just blows a horde of Mordor orcs out of the water. At the same time, we can't easily decrease the CP cost of basic orcs because that would mean Mordor gets twice as many free units in the early game and could just overwhelm the enemy before they get upgrades. But Mordor is not meant to be a fast rush faction, they're supposed to be a strong lategame faction. So Mordor needs ways to empower its army that cost no CP, otherwise they're stuck with 60 CP Orcs against upgraded Tower Guards for 90 CP. I think the Ungol units fill a very cool and unique role in the faction. The black uruks are also specifically tailored to fight upgraded units.

[Skeeverboy]

Which faction is strongest is subjective and dependent on the play style of the player, I believe Mordor and Isengard to be tied for strongest late game. This does not mean that the Dwarves are not also an extremely potent force on the battlefield late game, but Isengard units just, don't, die, when they have all their upgrades and leadership.

Ironhils have a axe, which is good again upped Units with armor. I have see how a upped Ironhill army wins again a upped Ered Luin and a upped Isengard Army.

The Ungol units are meant as a counterbalance to other factions' upgrades. They cost no CP much like it costs no CP to upgrade your tower guards with heavy armor and forged blades - and Gondor can do that with its whole army, while Ungol units are more limited. In terms of command point efficiency, an upgraded bataillon of Gondor soldiers just blows a horde of Mordor orcs out of the water. At the same time, we can't easily decrease the CP cost of basic orcs because that would mean Mordor gets twice as many free units in the early game and could just overwhelm the enemy before they get upgrades. But Mordor is not meant to be a fast rush faction, they're supposed to be a strong lategame faction. So Mordor needs ways to empower its army that cost no CP, otherwise they're stuck with 60 CP Orcs against upgraded Tower Guards for 90 CP. I think the Ungol units fill a very cool and unique role in the faction. The black uruks are also specifically tailored to fight upgraded units.

This is what I mean

[Elite KryPtik]

Well, a member of the team has spoken, so I'll shuddup
But I still don't think its balanced, and reducing the CP cost of basic orcs would not affect their build speed, especially if you reduce their health to be 1 hit by any unit. My reason for bringing this up was a game I played recently as Gondor v Mordor, all he did was make the Cirith Ungol units and a few free orcs, along with the Nazgul and Sauron, and finally a few catapults. By doing this, keeping his units all together and not attacking, and merely using the catapults, he essentially laid waste to me. Every time I would try to attack my units would lose all their leadership and the strong Cirith Ungol units would shred them, even the swordsmen of ringlo vale, who are supposed to be good against unarmored enemies, and it seemed very unfair. Match was over in like 10 minutes because he slowly crawled forward and demolished my base.

When it comes to the armor piercing axes of the Iron Hills, they have to get close to use them, and Isengard Crossbowmen with steel bolts can devastate enemy armies, not to mention berserkers.

[Skeeverboy]

When it comes to the armor piercing axes of the Iron Hills, they have to get close to use them, and Isengard Crossbowmen with steel bolts can devastate enemy armies, not to mention berserkers.

Than Ironhils use Firebows
Dwarven can have updates in the early MG, so they can kill easy Isengard units and become mapcontroll. So Isen can't come to his updates.

[Elite KryPtik]

Yes, but that is mid game, not late game. I'm speaking of late game when Isengard DOES have all of their upgrades, at that point they are very strong.

[Skeeverboy]

And than the Ironhils has their Axes too and can kill easy Isengard.
Dwarvens can update theri army in the early middle game and at the end of the middle they have all Upgrades, when Isen have just 1-2.
For other Faction it gives a rule: Don't let come Isengard in lategame.

[Elite KryPtik]

Listen, I'm not going to argue this point with you over text. If you want to test which faction is stronger, we can play later today, both build the biggest strongest army we can, and then fight and see who wins.

[Sir_Stig]

Listen, I'm not going to argue this point with you over text. If you want to test which faction is stronger, we can play later today, both build the biggest strongest army we can, and then fight and see who wins.

post the replay please

[Skeeverboy]

post the replay please

We haven't test it, because it is not necessary I think. Because just fight with two armys isn't part of the balance.
The Earlygame, the Middlegame and the Lategame are very important parts of Balance.
For example: Isengard is a bad faction in the EG, but in the LG they are very very strong. When you don't attack Isengard in the EG they become very fast strong.
But Dwarvens are the strongest in the EG, MG and LG. This is a problem. Dwarvens Units can kill easy Uruks, Orks, Farmers etc..

[Elite KryPtik]

We haven't test it, because it is not necessary I think. Because just fight with two armys isn't part of the balance.
The Earlygame, the Middlegame and the Lategame are very important parts of Balance.
For example: Isengard is a bad faction in the EG, but in the LG they are very very strong. When you don't attack Isengard in the EG they become very fast strong.
But Dwarvens are the strongest in the EG, MG and LG. This is a problem. Dwarvens Units can kill easy Uruks, Orks, Farmers etc..

You just stated my exact point, late game Isengard has the strongest army. I know for a fact that Isengard late game can defeat a dwarven faction, unless its just solid Veterans. Iron Hills armor piercing axes isn't enough to defeat the Uruks once they have shieldbearers, captains, and the Steelworks upgrades. Like I said, we can test it out if you don't believe me.

[Skeeverboy]

Iron Hills armor piercing axes isn't enough to defeat the Uruks once they have shieldbearers, captains, and the Steelworks upgrades

I have see how a Ironhil army have killed a full upped Isengard (from my teammade) and 1200 cp upped Ered Luin (from me).

[Elite KryPtik]

OK I'll be on later, we need to settle this.

EDIT: Cancel that, I just downloaded a new beta so we won't be able to play, once the next public update comes out we can settle this.

[CragLord]

This discussion starts to getting some attention. 
We are waiting for results.

[Elite KryPtik]

Yeah, next time we're both on I'm going message him so we can do this. More than likely Dwarves will win because of heroes with Mithril, without that Isengard would reign supreme.