My thoughts on balance

[Draco100000]

No units should cost 0 CP, its just not fair.

Ungol units can be used very well in all of the game fases, being troops with high armor and damage, also without cp cost. Well keep in mind that in Late game, if you had got an equal match you must be able to have almost your entire armie with upgrades. The upgrades makes your units far away more powerfull than Ungol units  (except the ungol archers). So they arent as important as you think, also mordor always will have more troops than you if the Mordor player is playing well, because all of the troops of Mordor have less health and damage than upgraded armies of other factions like gondor or Isengard, so ungol units are core units on Mid game and support units on late game, they dont need cp cost. maybe the archers ok, but halberediers and uruks dont need cp cost, or early game with mordor will be also very difficult to them.

[Adrigabbro]

I agree with Draco regarding his thoughts about early and mid game.
In addition, you're complaining that Mordor will have a bigger army in late game than everyone else; well, doesn't it make sense? I think it does.

[Elite KryPtik]

You seem to be forgetting the debuffs of the Nazgul, these make enemy armies pathetically weak, even with upgrades, while also removing enemy leaderships. When combined with all of the different stackable buffs that Mordor can get(Eye, Land, Darkness, Gothmog LD, Drummer Troll LD, etc), Cirith Ungol troops and all of Mordor's other troops become extremely strong, unless there are no Nazgul around. Having the Ungol units cost CP would not affect Mordor early game at all, you'd still be able to get them, just maybe a few less battalions of orcs, depending on how fast you get Pantry upgrades. I understand that having more units than the enemy is suiting for Mordor, but looking at this from a purely balance perspective, it is not balanced to have units cost 0 CP. Hell, I think that the basic orcs should be made only 30 CP and made so weak that any unit can 1 hit them, this would allow you to get the true spammy nature of Mordor instead of OP armies with 9 battalions, or more, than your enemy. The Cirith Ungol units used to cost CP, and Mordor played just fine while it was like this. I don't really understand why that's been changed.

[Walküre]

You seem to be forgetting the debuffs of the Nazgul, these make enemy armies pathetically weak, even with upgrades, while also removing enemy leaderships. When combined with all of the different stackable buffs that Mordor can get(Eye, Land, Darkness, Gothmog LD, Drummer Troll LD, etc), Cirith Ungol troops and all of Mordor's other troops become extremely strong, unless there are no Nazgul around. Having the Ungol units cost CP would not affect Mordor early game at all, you'd still be able to get them, just maybe a few less battalions of orcs, depending on how fast you get Pantry upgrades. I understand that having more units than the enemy is suiting for Mordor, but looking at this from a purely balance perspective, it is not balanced to have units cost 0 CP. Hell, I think that the basic orcs should be made only 30 CP and made so weak that any unit can 1 hit them, this would allow you to get the true spammy nature of Mordor instead of OP armies with 9 battalions, or more, than your enemy. The Cirith Ungol units used to cost CP, and Mordor played just fine while it was like this. I don't really understand why that's been changed.

I would say that I agree with you.
Even though the sort of 'spamming' nature of Mordor has always been one of its peculiar characteristics, justified both by the lore and some iconic elements of the previous BFME games, I find it kind of exaggerated making the Cirith Ungol units so useful and easy to recruit, considering how already tough and challenging they are by themselves, particularly in the early game.
And I would add that I also find it quite unfair that significant and effective leadership powers, especially the ones of leaders of factions (like Théoden or, in the future, Elrond), are totally made ineffective by the aura of the Ringwraiths (not to mention the other effects of enhancing spells made useless as well); it would be an interesting solution making the malus of the Nazgûl kind of 'selective', effective on some types of upgrades, but useless towards others.
But I am also aware that it could create many difficult and problematic scenarios of coding issues, and, subsequently, bugs.

[Draco100000]

You seem to be forgetting the debuffs of the Nazgul, these make enemy armies pathetically weak, even with upgrades, while also removing enemy leaderships. When combined with all of the different stackable buffs that Mordor can get(Eye, Land, Darkness, Gothmog LD, Drummer Troll LD, etc), Cirith Ungol troops and all of Mordor's other troops become extremely strong, unless there are no Nazgul around. Having the Ungol units cost CP would not affect Mordor early game at all, you'd still be able to get them, just maybe a few less battalions of orcs, depending on how fast you get Pantry upgrades. I understand that having more units than the enemy is suiting for Mordor, but looking at this from a purely balance perspective, it is not balanced to have units cost 0 CP. Hell, I think that the basic orcs should be made only 30 CP and made so weak that any unit can 1 hit them, this would allow you to get the true spammy nature of Mordor instead of OP armies with 9 battalions, or more, than your enemy. The Cirith Ungol units used to cost CP, and Mordor played just fine while it was like this. I don't really understand why that's been changed.

I would say that I agree with you.
Even though the sort of 'spamming' nature of Mordor has always been one of its peculiar characteristics, justified both by the lore and some iconic elements of the previous BFME games, I find it kind of exaggerated making the Cirith Ungol units so useful and easy to recruit, considering how already tough and challenging they are by themselves, particularly in the early game.
And I would add that I also find it quite unfair that significant and effective leadership powers, especially the ones of leaders of factions (like Théoden or, in the future, Elrond), are totally made ineffective by the aura of the Ringwraiths (not to mention the other effects of enhancing spells made useless as well); it would be an interesting solution making the malus of the Nazgûl kind of 'selective', effective on some types of upgrades, but useless towards others.
But I am also aware that it could create many difficult and problematic scenarios of coding issues, and, subsequently, bugs.

Have you ever  tried get an armie of standard orcs and get them for the entire match ( or at least more than 1 attack- defense) They simply die , make a bit damage and then die, so Ungol make the damage, and the orcs tank the arrows and the enemies. If you look colsely mordor matches, mordor player is the entire match getting free orcs. Why? because they die all the time, so ungol are units who support the hordes and bring you time to their recruitment, so giving ungol cp Cost you will lost your chance to get a very small advantage ( remember that Ungol requires a good planificated economy to get them, they are very expensive). And camon, Nazgul debuffs are nearly useless, you simply kick nazguls using hobbits and normal troops . Ungol, in the roleplaying of mordor is vital as well as it is now.

[Elite KryPtik]

Giving Cirith Ungol units a basic CP cost would not seriously affect the orc spam. Also, I don't know what you mean by the Nazgul debuff being useless, because its DAMN strong. All you need is a little bit of micro to keep them alive, and once they have their armor they can be close to unkillable. Also, I have played games making not much except for basic orcs, and I have pushed my opponent all the way to their base with this strategy, with no support but the Nazgul for debuffs. Finally, you keep bringing the argument back to early game, when my entire argument is based around late game. Early game would barely be affected at all, especially if the team would lower the cp cost of basic free orcs to 30. My point, as I keep stating, is that Mordors ability to get so many extra units late game is not fair, even if the bulk of those are free orcs (which as I've already stated, will almost never be the case with a skilled Mordor player) they are still free, and build at a fairly rapid pace. Basic fairness means that no race should ever be able to field more units than their command points can support, having units cost less CP than other units of that caliber(other elite infantry cost 90-120 CP, elite archers are always 120. I'm saying that the elite units of cirith ungol should cost 60/90 for archers) is a fair way to stay true to Mordor's spammy nature.

[Walküre]

Have you ever  tried get an armie of standard orcs and get them for the entire match ( or at least more than 1 attack- defense) They simply die , make a bit damage and then die, so Ungol make the damage, and the orcs tank the arrows and the enemies. If you look colsely mordor matches, mordor player is the entire match getting free orcs. Why? because they die all the time, so ungol are units who support the hordes and bring you time to their recruitment, so giving ungol cp Cost you will lost your chance to get a very small advantage ( remember that Ungol requires a good planificated economy to get them, they are very expensive). And camon, Nazgul debuffs are nearly useless, you simply kick nazguls using hobbits and normal troops . Ungol, in the roleplaying of mordor is vital as well as it is now.

No, you can not simply kill the Nazgûl 
Maybe you are underestimating the problem.
You have no idea of how vicious and treacherous is Mordor; it can use Fear, Poison, and Evil Influences to make your armies suffer and despair, and it also can taint lands, darken the Sky and make you revive the terrible memory of Gorthaur from the Elder Days.
Mordor is really dreadful 

The only powers that win the malicious aura of the Nazgûl are the ones that can make yourself or the surrounding units and heroes temporarily invincible; ergo Thorin or Galadriel 

[Skeeverboy]

Last match you have say to me: Khazad-Dûm are good from the balance, and now you say that the weakest fraction will more weaker? (sry my bad english )
When Mordor will be more weaker, it will be the badest faction of all. I think Mordor must be stronger and not weaker. Mordor needs the 0 CP Uruks, because they have no Upgrades.

[Elite KryPtik]

I didn't say that veterans are "good for balance" what I said was that they aren't OP if they aren't spammed. Just getting 2 or 3 squads so you can give mithril to your heroes is not a big deal in my view, but I do understand and recognize that they are stronger than they should be when it comes to armor and damage. Either they need to be made harder to get, or have the same method of getting them and nerf their stats.

Also, Mordor is not weak by any means, they are tied with Isengard for strongest faction, but they are the slowest faction to build up by far. Early game and mid game they are a little slow, but late game they are nothing short of a nightmare. Just like right now Rohan is an early game nightmare, and Gondor is a mid game nightmare. Each faction currently is strong at a certain point in the game. Also, I don't understand why you think giving Cirith Ungol units CP will ruin the faction or make it weaker, they used to cost CP and I would get them all the time. All it would mean is a few less worthless free orcs, which is not extremely significant.

[Skeeverboy]

At the moment Rohan and Dwarvens are the strongest faction. When Uruks cost CP Mordor has not enough for Orks and Trolls. So Mordor can't use his full potential.

[Elite KryPtik]

Which faction is strongest is subjective and dependent on the play style of the player, I believe Mordor and Isengard to be tied for strongest late game. This does not mean that the Dwarves are not also an extremely potent force on the battlefield late game, but Isengard units just, don't, die, when they have all their upgrades and leadership.

[Lord of Mordor]

The Ungol units are meant as a counterbalance to other factions' upgrades. They cost no CP much like it costs no CP to upgrade your tower guards with heavy armor and forged blades - and Gondor can do that with its whole army, while Ungol units are more limited. In terms of command point efficiency, an upgraded bataillon of Gondor soldiers just blows a horde of Mordor orcs out of the water. At the same time, we can't easily decrease the CP cost of basic orcs because that would mean Mordor gets twice as many free units in the early game and could just overwhelm the enemy before they get upgrades. But Mordor is not meant to be a fast rush faction, they're supposed to be a strong lategame faction. So Mordor needs ways to empower its army that cost no CP, otherwise they're stuck with 60 CP Orcs against upgraded Tower Guards for 90 CP. I think the Ungol units fill a very cool and unique role in the faction. The black uruks are also specifically tailored to fight upgraded units.

[Skeeverboy]

Which faction is strongest is subjective and dependent on the play style of the player, I believe Mordor and Isengard to be tied for strongest late game. This does not mean that the Dwarves are not also an extremely potent force on the battlefield late game, but Isengard units just, don't, die, when they have all their upgrades and leadership.

Ironhils have a axe, which is good again upped Units with armor. I have see how a upped Ironhill army wins again a upped Ered Luin and a upped Isengard Army.

The Ungol units are meant as a counterbalance to other factions' upgrades. They cost no CP much like it costs no CP to upgrade your tower guards with heavy armor and forged blades - and Gondor can do that with its whole army, while Ungol units are more limited. In terms of command point efficiency, an upgraded bataillon of Gondor soldiers just blows a horde of Mordor orcs out of the water. At the same time, we can't easily decrease the CP cost of basic orcs because that would mean Mordor gets twice as many free units in the early game and could just overwhelm the enemy before they get upgrades. But Mordor is not meant to be a fast rush faction, they're supposed to be a strong lategame faction. So Mordor needs ways to empower its army that cost no CP, otherwise they're stuck with 60 CP Orcs against upgraded Tower Guards for 90 CP. I think the Ungol units fill a very cool and unique role in the faction. The black uruks are also specifically tailored to fight upgraded units.

This is what I mean

[Elite KryPtik]

Well, a member of the team has spoken, so I'll shuddup
But I still don't think its balanced, and reducing the CP cost of basic orcs would not affect their build speed, especially if you reduce their health to be 1 hit by any unit. My reason for bringing this up was a game I played recently as Gondor v Mordor, all he did was make the Cirith Ungol units and a few free orcs, along with the Nazgul and Sauron, and finally a few catapults. By doing this, keeping his units all together and not attacking, and merely using the catapults, he essentially laid waste to me. Every time I would try to attack my units would lose all their leadership and the strong Cirith Ungol units would shred them, even the swordsmen of ringlo vale, who are supposed to be good against unarmored enemies, and it seemed very unfair. Match was over in like 10 minutes because he slowly crawled forward and demolished my base.

When it comes to the armor piercing axes of the Iron Hills, they have to get close to use them, and Isengard Crossbowmen with steel bolts can devastate enemy armies, not to mention berserkers.

[Skeeverboy]

When it comes to the armor piercing axes of the Iron Hills, they have to get close to use them, and Isengard Crossbowmen with steel bolts can devastate enemy armies, not to mention berserkers.

Than Ironhils use Firebows
Dwarven can have updates in the early MG, so they can kill easy Isengard units and become mapcontroll. So Isen can't come to his updates.