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Autor Thema: Discussion About 4.1.2  (Gelesen 6845 mal)

Elite KryPtik

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Discussion About 4.1.2
« am: 19. Aug 2015, 21:27 »
Hey everyone, thought I would go ahead and make this thread for people to post what they do and do not like about the latest patch, 4.1.2. Personally, I think the change to the resource system is kind of unnecessary, but more importantly it completely ruins a couple of factions early games. Isengard, Gondor and to a lesser extent, Dwarves are now so weak early game its actually funny. Rohan Peasant spam can completely shut down and kill Isengard, and prevent Gondor from gaining any map control at all. Same for Mordor orc spam, and its even worse against them because orcs are free.

The changes to trampling synergize with the changes to economy buildings for Rohan, making cavalry pointless in comparison with the effectiveness of peasant spam, which really frustrates me as Rohan is supposed to be a cavalry faction. Something should be done about this, although I don't know what can be done without making Rohan cavalry OP.

I haven't played too much of the patch yet so that's all I will post for now, but I think that this patch has actually worsened, not improved, the balance overall :(
Please remember that these are just my opinions, although they are backed up by the fact I play online quite a bit. Post the things you do and don't like about the patch as you discover them here :)
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

bookworm1138

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #1 am: 19. Aug 2015, 23:12 »
i wanted to play against the Dwarves, and now i have. totally satisfied with that

as far as Rohan goes, i feel that peasants should be nerfed a little. also having to shell out 1000 resources just for two resource gathering buildings in my fortress (ie Furnace, Mineshaft, Tribute Camp, House, Stud Farm, etc.) is a bit much, and i'm not 100% on-board with that.
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Adrigabbro

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #2 am: 19. Aug 2015, 23:17 »
Haven't tried competitively the new version, but from what I've seen the inner buildings really DO produce a lot of money. I believe you're a bit overreacting when you say there is no balance anymore.  ;)
Additionally, peasants have been weakened by a lot, wouldn't it make up for Rohan harassment potential?

That's no criticism, keep that in mind. But I would like to play some 1v1 with you if you will. I don't mean to judge your skill or mine, I only want to see how all those changes will really impact the game and you seem very well aware of balance matters and strategy.  :)


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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #3 am: 19. Aug 2015, 23:31 »
Haven't tried competitively the new version, but from what I've seen the inner buildings really DO produce a lot of money. I believe you're a bit overreacting when you say there is no balance anymore.  ;)
Additionally, peasants have been weakened by a lot, wouldn't it make up for Rohan harassment potential?

That's no criticism, keep that in mind. But I would like to play some 1v1 with you if you will. I don't mean to judge your skill or mine, I only want to see how all those changes will really impact the game and you seem very well aware of balance matters and strategy.  :)

I would be happy to 1v1 you any time :)
I'm E_KryPtik on Gameranger, and Elite KryPtik on Tunngle.

I didn't say there was "no balance" I said that I thought the balance has been worsened. Isengard's early game is really super weak now, and your only option against a skilled Rohan is to get lumber mills and rush Bill Ferny to level 10, to get enough resources to maybe just barely survive. Gondor has gates, so they are harder to kill, but complete lack of map control is a nasty thing.
« Letzte Änderung: 19. Aug 2015, 23:36 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #4 am: 20. Aug 2015, 04:54 »
I'm sorry for the double post, but this belongs in its own post, because it includes a replay.

After playing some more, I have come to a couple more conclusions. If you are Rohan and are up against Isengard, Gondor or Dwarves, making cavalry is now illogical and inefficient. So this update is a double edged sword, against Rohan and Mordor, your cavalry now dominate, but against any of the other 3 all you can do is spam peasants. Me and my friend just finished doing some extensive testing to see how good the new trample is, with me as Rohan and him as Gondor. Its safe to say any half decent pikes will now instantly kill cavalry. I'll attach the replay below, its very long and includes a lot of testing of what kinds of damage gets inflicted by trampling and damage cavalry receives from trampling.

It also includes a huge battle towards the end, which sticks to the same rules as a skirmish would, even though we were on epic battle mode. We both had 1800 command points worth of troops, who were all fully upgraded and most were max level, and we fought each-other. He slaughtered my entire army and only lost around 3 battalions, showing how weak Rohan melee is late game. However, I then made a huge army of Rohirrim archers, and killed his entire army. The last thing in the replay is a gigantic double siege of both of our bases at once, where I demonstrate just how weak Rohans siege warfare is in both defence and attack. It takes around 30 Onagers to breach Gondors walls, and when he sends bombardment ships to destroy my base there is nothing I can do about it, because Rohan has no wall mounted catapults. A lot of great showcases of things I've been saying on the forums for some time in this replay, I hope the team will find the time to watch it, long as it is :)

1 final note, Rohan needs some kind of a scout power, they are the only faction to not have this and it hurts them pretty badly late game.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Golem

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #5 am: 21. Aug 2015, 15:41 »
I definitely agree, I don't get why Cavalry was nerfed, they're just not efficient at the moment, same with Heroes, who are struggling to beat even a group of gondor soldiers, right now the game strategy for all the factions is just to spam archers and throw in a couple of swordsmen and pikemen and you're good

Adrigabbro

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #6 am: 21. Aug 2015, 16:07 »
No, heroes are definitely not weak. Don't expect to pay 1000 for a medium fighter and get a beast who can solo kill armies. Try out Gimli or Aragorn, among others, and come back arguing heroes are too weak.


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Golem

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #7 am: 21. Aug 2015, 21:54 »
Well, I just tried Gimli and he lost to two regular gondor pikemen units, same with Mouth of Sauron. I think Heroes should get buffed a bit, but their price should be increased to balance it out, it's just not worth it to get any of the late game heroes, because upgrades like fire arrows and forged blades benefit a lot more.
Anyway, this is just my opinion, and I find the Cavalry problem more important, as it has a huge impact on Rohan's gameplan

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #8 am: 21. Aug 2015, 22:11 »
Yeah, the global nerf to hero health was completely unwarranted in my view, the only heroes that were OP were dwarf heroes.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Adrigabbro

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #9 am: 22. Aug 2015, 09:55 »
Well, you can't just put a fight with level 1 Gimli and two troops and then wait and see. That's not how it works.  :P Heroes are supposed to merge inside your army, no matter their role. Plus once you get level 5 with Gimli, he's totally the beast you are waiting for.


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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #10 am: 22. Aug 2015, 17:42 »
I'm well aware of how to use heroes, I'm just saying in general that I don't think the hero nerf was necessary, same with the change to cost on economy buildings.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #11 am: 22. Aug 2015, 18:35 »
they should nerf the peasants and buff the rohirims
« Letzte Änderung: 23. Aug 2015, 15:33 von Gandalf The Gray »

Adrigabbro

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #12 am: 23. Aug 2015, 13:35 »
Back on inner resource buildings, now that I've played more games, I like the idea behind it (which was explained by Lord of Mordor in another topic if I'm not mistkaing) but I agree it is a little too much.
A simple solution would be to decrease the cost from 500 to 400 and the amount of resources earned in the same time.


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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #13 am: 23. Aug 2015, 18:48 »
The old system worked just fine, 350 for inner and 250 for outer. All this new system does is hurt the early games of Gondor, Isengard and Dwarves. Mordor and Rohan are able to basically shut down all expansion of these 3 factions now, and I can tell from the way Lothlorien currently plays that it will be the same thing with them too.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Adrigabbro

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Re: Discussion About 4.1.2
« Antwort #14 am: 23. Aug 2015, 18:59 »
It also helps a lot the players who tend to play more defensively or are under siege in general. That was the point of the change and I think it was needed. I'd simply say it was a bit too much. Down to 400 for inner buildings, I don't think the three factions you mentioned would be hurt badly.


"That still only counts as one!"