How large should armies get?

[Lord of Mordor]

Hey guys,

this is a topic I've been pondering for a while, and I'd welcome your feedback

As you know, armies in Edain can get much larger than in the original Battle for Middle-Earth games. This makes battles more epic, but also presents some gameplay problems.

For one, units tend to clump together once there are too many of them, so you could have twenty groups of Gondor soldiers, but they all stand in the same spot and look like they're just one or two units. This also makes area of effect abilities much more powerful, because even a small wizard blast can hit a huge chunk of troops. Furthermore, large armies are more difficult to control and some spaces like fortress walls are limited in space and work better when armies are smaller. On the other hand, of course, battles between large armies are part of what of what makes the movies so cool and that's what many are looking for when they play these games.

This is a bit of a dilemma, so I'd be very curious to hear what the community thinks on this topic. Do you think an army at full command points in the default Skirmish game mode is a good size at the moment? Would you rather be able to build even more troops in the default mode? Do you usually play Battle or Epic Battle because you really want the increased command points? Or do you feel that armies already get too large in the default mode and that the game would play better with smaller armies that are easier to control? This could be achieved in several ways, including just reducing the maximum limit of 1800 CP or reducing troop sizes to 10 or 5 per bataillon while leaving CP costs intact. But right now I'm mostly interested in your general opinion and how big you want armies in Edain 4.0 to be.

This does not mean that we already have changes in this area planned for the near future, by the way! But it is a question on our minds and a very fundamental one, so it would be very helpful to know what our players prefer.

[Fredius]

I for one find the amount of CP points fine, it is the size of the battalions, however, that cause this problem. Even if you reduce the CP points, the clumping will not get away because the battalions are sometimes very big. I don't know how much influence it has on the clumping, but if you really want to remove this problem then in my case I'd suggest to make the battalions a bit smaller.

[Lord of Mordor]

Yes, smaller bataillons would be an option here. The question is whether people would enjoy seeing less soldiers on the field (and thus less epic battles) if it also reduces issues like clumping and unit control, which is one of the reasons I made this poll.

[Odysseus]

Hmm, I think it is largely fine the way it is. The clumping together issue can mostly be resolved with a bit of micro. Larger armies will just overburden the engine, I find. Anyway, I would advise adding a smaller army and larger army gamemode (like there already is, if I am not mistaken) just in case there is popular/communal support for this notion.

Loving the mod so far as a newcomer and trying to get myself into some pvp soon .

[dgsgomes]

The armies are just fine IMO. Changing their size could result in need of changing lots of things in the game to make it balanced again. The game looks great and works perfectly the way it is. Anyway, I appreciate the fact that you want to know our thoughts and opinions. ^^

[kai69]

i think the CP and batallions are just fine as they are now but maybe a little less CP than now would be better because when i have armies with 1800 CP I get a lot of lag and that when i play alone, when I play with friends (2 friends) we stick to 900-1000 CP each because if not its quite imposible to play. now i mostly play alone so maybe 1400-1500 it would be better, if not, you can always change back to 1800

[LordDainIronfoot]

I think the size of a the Armies is ideal,the CP are fine and with the current size of the Armies you can get Epic Battles without game lagging or crashing! :-) And we still have Epic Battle Mod which is perfect for the purpose! :-)

I personally do not like the idea of increasing or decreasing the number of soldiers in a Battalion,I always thought that it is one of the best and most unique things in Edain cuz the size of the battalion represented absolutely properly the situation with the population of each Race and Kingdom ,to me is perfect as it is! Not to mention if the size is changed will need a lot of other balance changes as health and damage and so on!
So basically to me it is just perfect the way it is!
Greetings and have a great day ! :-)

[ringbearer]

I'm in favour of smaller units like BFME1 but with an option to combine them , it was one of the best features of BFME1 ( tower guards in front and rangers behind them    ). Afterall , i think the dwarves have the best size of batalions and 20 orcs when just 3 or 4 of them are fighting are too much.

[Adrigabbro]

I voted "Armies could be slitghtly smaller than they are now", but as many have stated, it would require many more balance changes to match this change.
The current system is fine, but there are several issues. For instance, because of the amount of troops, only a small part of the batallion is fighting while the other part is standing still. Last but not least, computers have hard time when all players reach 1800 CP.
Thats why, if anything, I'd rather see fewer units per batallion, but I'm not sure what would happen concerning balance and ambiance. Have you tried in intern some modifications? If so, what did your testers think about it?
Final note: the amount of CP is fine.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

Have you tried in intern some modifications? If so, what did your testers think about it?

This does not mean that we already have changes in this area planned for the near future, by the way! But it is a question on our minds and a very fundamental one, so it would be very helpful to know what our players prefer.

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

I believe reducing the battalions sizes to something like Bfme1 would greatly reduce the lag.

[Lord of Mordor]

It would, though part of the lag is simply that the engine is quite outdated at this point. However, smaller armies are obviously easier to handle.

Thanks for all your votes so far Please don't take into account how much work a change would potentially be though - that's what we'll have to shoulder What's most important here is how you would enjoy the game the most.

[Adrigabbro]

Have you tried in intern some modifications? If so, what did your testers think about it?

This does not mean that we already have changes in this area planned for the near future, by the way! But it is a question on our minds and a very fundamental one, so it would be very helpful to know what our players prefer.

The main question was the second one: how does it affect gameplay? 

[DrHouse93]

Honestly, I like the way armies are right now. The only exception may be Imladris, since I saw their batallions too small in 3.81, though I don't know their actual/planned size, so maybe if you can make Imladris' batallions a bit larger would be glad^^

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

Have you tried in intern some modifications? If so, what did your testers think about it?

This does not mean that we already have changes in this area planned for the near future, by the way! But it is a question on our minds and a very fundamental one, so it would be very helpful to know what our players prefer.

The main question was the second one: how does it affect gameplay? 

Since the answer to the first question is no (what Lord of Mordor said), the second question becomes irrelevant^^

[Fredius]

Honestly, I like the way armies are right now. The only exception may be Imladris, since I saw their batallions too small in 3.81, though I don't know their actual/planned size, so maybe if you can make Imladris' batallions a bit larger would be glad^^

I believe they did that because of the lore. There aren't many Imladris Elves left in Middle-Earth.

[Walküre]

I don't have any problem with the largeness of the armies as well; it's quite fine for me 

I believe they did that because of the lore. There aren't many Imladris Elves left in Middle-Earth.

Exactly 
The remaining Noldor of Middle Earth were very few in the late Third Age.
Their number had constantly been reducing since the end of the War of the Last Alliance and the Second Age; many of them were also heading to the Grey Havens to leave the World forever.

The number of the Imladris' units is thus an unique and characteristic trait of this faction, and, most importantly, lore accurate.
Rivendell mainly focuses on Quality and on the unmatchable Experience of its soldiers (some of them might even be Veterans of the Elder Days) 
Changing or replacing an element like this would be like, I think, changing the free regular Orcs of Mordor.

[dgsgomes]

"Changing or replacing an element like this would be like, I think, changing the free regular Orcs of Mordor."

Damn, you are good on argumentation, Walk. I did not like the idea of small batallions for Imladris until now, because I always thought it was strange, did not look cool and also made its units desproporcionaly strong compared to other factions troops. But I got your point. Makes all the sense and fits very well, when analysing it from this perspective. 

They may just need adjustements concerning flank while fighting, as the batallions are very small. But this is not the topic of this thread. 

[Walküre]

Damn, you are good on argumentation, Walk.

Thank you 

I did not like the idea of small batallions for Imladris until now, because I always thought it was strange, did not look cool and also made its units desproporcionaly strong compared to other factions troops. But I got your point. Makes all the sense and fits very well, when analysing it from this perspective. 

I'm very glad to see that you changed idea about this matter 
This trait, and all the reasons behind it, is exactly one of the things that I like the most about Rivendell 

[Sir_Stig]

I would say maybe the units per battalion could be made a little smaller (I find weak units like orcs are especially difficult to utilize effectively atm due to 3/4 of the battalion just standing around watching. I would say that we should wait till imladris at least is released, as the would be among the most affected by any changes in battalion size, but honestly I'm pretty okay with it as it is.

[Thumba-umba]

Here is what i tell you.
I am going to suggest you to decrease BOTH the amount of CP and the cost of units. Why is that? Because right now the CP cost system looks ridiculous. Why would i need those huge 1500CP, 1800CP, 2000CP, if NONE of the units cost 1 CP/single fighter? Seriously, can anyone tell my what is the real difference between having 100 CP limit with each unit costs 1 CP/fighter and having 600 CP and all units 6 CP/fighter? Just so you can have nice big numbers in left bottom of the screen? That is pointless. BfME had reasonable unit counting, with cheapest militia units starting at 1 CP/fighter. BfME raised CP limit to 1000, yet even the cheapest units starts at aroun 3-4 CP/fighter. That is not an increase, it is simply an inflation. We don't need this.
What i suggest is to develop a consistent system with unit ranks where units of the same rank being roughly similar in performance and CP cost, with slight deviations, and each following rank being 25 (or 33 or 50, dont know for sure) persent stronger than previous.
The foolowing ranks are:
Militia-grade units - cheapes and weakest.
Militia-grade units come at 1CP/fighter for melee infantry, 2CP for ranged infantry, 3CP for melee cavalry, 4CP for ranged cavalry.
Regular grade units - regular army is not super powerful, but it is trained and disciplined.
Regular-grade units come at 1CP/fighter more than militia ones, so 2CP for melee infantry, 3 CP for ranged infantry, and so on.
Veteran grade units - contains of skillful die-hards who can certainly kick some big ass.
Same here - 3CP/fighter for melee infantry, 4CP for ranged infantry, so on.
Elite units - best of the best. Literally One Man Army units.
Elite units come at variable CP per fighter, but something comparable with heroes.
Heroes comes for 5 to 20 CP
Siege machines cost from 5 to 20 CP.

Brief check-list:
Militia-grade infantry
- Rohan militia
- Easterlings militia (balcloth maybe?)
- Orcs
- Goblins (yes, i know they are still just orcs, but this is for the record)
- Dunlendings
- Corsairs
Regular-grade infantry
- Gondor/Arnor infantry
- Harad army
- Isengard scouts
- Elite orcs (like Gundabad orcs)
- Men of Dale infantry
- Elven militia (maybe? Not sure elves would use militia at all, except in extreme need)
Veteran-grade infantry
- Isengard infantry
- Easterlings infantry
- Variag infantry
- Dwarven infantry
- Lorien/Mirkwood infantry
- Dunedain infantry
- Dol Amroth infantry/Fountain Guards
- Half-trolls (if there will be)
Elite infantry
- All Hero infantry
- All Imladris/Lindon infantry

Militia-grade cavalry
- Spiders
- Wargs
Regular-grade cavalry
- Spider riders
- Warg riders
- Harad cavalry
- Mountain trolls
Veterean-grade cavalry
- Rohirrim
- Gondor Knights
- Dwarven Battlewagons
- Lorien/Mirkwood cavalry
- Easterlings cavalry (if there will be)
- War trolls
Elite cavalry
- All Hero cavalry
- Imladris cavalry

As for the CP limit i think you should get back to 1000CP, or even to 500-600CP for normal mode. For epic battle 4000-5000CP sounds about right.

Concerning the unit size - i think the best balance was the Isengard in BfME, with their infantry units are of 10 fighters and cavalry units are of 5 riders. I still believe that size of units to be the most appropriate. For those who want larger units, you can add a compromise solution - add the ability to merge few units of the same type in one larger unit. Say, good factions can merge two units into bigger one, and evil factions can merge up to four units. This would be also an homage to the larger evil hordes of original BfME.

[Melkor Bauglir]

Well, while I agree in some way, it isn't completely right: The high amount of CP makes it easier to balance different units. For example, Mordors orcs cost 3 CP per unit, Gondors soldiers 4. There is no mathmatical way to have the same effect with integer CP-values if the orcs cost... say 1, as they did in 3.8.1. To be honest, in this version Mordors units did actually cost only half of Gondors which completely changed in 4.0. So therefore high numbers do have an advantage as it allows to more carefully balance different CP-costs towards others.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Edit: BTW, I think the current system is absolutely fine and I would hate smaller armies. The game didn't lose lags because of smaller armies (3.8.1 armies were massively larger) and also I didn't micro my units less in 3.8.1.
However decreasing the troup size would create TONS of new problems, e.g. all heroes and hero-troups would be a lot stronger because their weakness is their limited availability. Also e.g. Mordors CU-units would get massively stronger and so on. If Edain wants to be more demanding for the players, this way is definitely not the right one!

[Thumba-umba]

Well, while I agree in some way, it isn't completely right: The high amount of CP makes it easier to balance different units. For example, Mordors orcs cost 3 CP per unit, Gondors soldiers 4. There is no mathmatical way to have the same effect with integer CP-values if the orcs cost... say 1, as they did in 3.8.1. To be honest, in this version Mordors units did actually cost only half of Gondors which completely changed in 4.0. So therefore high numbers do have an advantage as it allows to more carefully balance different CP-costs towards others.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Edit: BTW, I think the current system is absolutely fine and I would hate smaller armies. The game didn't lose lags because of smaller armies (3.8.1 armies were massively larger) and also I didn't micro my units less in 3.8.1.
However decreasing the troup size would create TONS of new problems, e.g. all heroes and hero-troups would be a lot stronger because their weakness is their limited availability. Also e.g. Mordors CU-units would get massively stronger and so on. If Edain wants to be more demanding for the players, this way is definitely not the right one!

High CP cost of units makes it considerably difficult to to tightly fill the capacity of armies in the war of the rings, for example. The CP cost in that matter is clearly not the only way ot balance units. In fact, i would say that developers made too much ways to balance units, which is partially the reason why the balance tweaking is so pain in the ass in this game.
As for the unit size - just shorten the build time accordingly, and you will lose nothing.

[Lord of Mordor]

Melkor hit the nail on the head: 60 CP is the first number that can be used for groups of 5, 10, 15 and 20 men at the same time. That is an essential requirement, so we use that number as  a baseline.

Thanks for your feedback on your votes on army size everyone! Looks like most people are happy with the current army sizes, while some could stand to see them reduced slightly. But with the votes standing as they are, we'll probably simply leave them as they are because there's no majority for any sort of change. If anything, we may consider a slight reduction in max CP for the future, like 1500 instead of 1800 or something like that. But it doesn't seem like there's any urgency for change here, and I'm glad to see we got it right for most of our players on the first try

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

Melkor hit the nail on the head: 60 CP is the first number that can be used for groups of 5, 10, 15 and 20 men at the same time. That is an essential requirement, so we use that number as  a baseline.

Thanks for your feedback on your votes on army size everyone! Looks like most people are happy with the current army sizes, while some could stand to see them reduced slightly. But with the votes standing as they are, we'll probably simply leave them as they are because there's no majority for any sort of change. If anything, we may consider a slight reduction in max CP for the future, like 1500 instead of 1800 or something like that. But it doesn't seem like there's any urgency for change here, and I'm glad to see we got it right for most of our players on the first try

Perhaps you could add a new mode called 'less command points'. It would reduce the max commandpoints to 1000, and unlike massacre, units would not diefaster/deal more damage.