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Umfrage

How should Tauriel be implemented?

As recruitable permanent hero
55 (45.5%)
As summoned hero, already shown in RuudDevils Gameplay video
66 (54.5%)

Stimmen insgesamt: 115

Autor Thema: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2  (Gelesen 18113 mal)

Gnomi

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #30 am: 9. Okt 2015, 13:58 »
I've also said a couple of things concerning such arguments in the past.^^

I will point out some of them now, as they are also important for this. I know that it's quite a lot, but perhaps some of you will read it. :P
Note please that I don't say that there are no reasons agains her being only a summon, I just want to give you some things to think about. I've read a lot of reasons in this topic in favor or against her being a summon, but I think that some important considerations are missing or are only mentioned in a side note. Ealendril also pointed out some of them, I just want to get a bit more in depth about them.^^


Tl;dr:
A summon has following advantages:
 - easier to balance
 - fits better to her role in the movies
 - faction is more straight forwared, therefore easier for new fans to play
 - more heroes can be played more often, even when a game doesn't take 50+ minutes.
 - summoned heroes always have a special attraction, even when the abilities are more standard

Therefore it's not just the question if she'll be added or not because she's a movie character, but there is much more behind it.



Of course you can always make a submod, but usually submods are not made by the team. If you want to make such a submod for yourself: Just do it!^^

Edit:
Please note that this doesn't mean that we won't integrate her at any cost or that the team is completely against the idea. These are just some more considerations you should think about. It also doesn't mean that there are no reasons in favor of a a normal recruitment. :)
« Letzte Änderung: 9. Okt 2015, 14:03 von Gnomi »

DrHouse93

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #31 am: 9. Okt 2015, 17:49 »
Honestly, I must say you have really good reasons (I agree on most of them) and I like the fact you seem to be one of the few who knows Lurtz is also invented by PJ (but no one ever complains about him. They just hate Tauriel with no reason). Even though I'd still prefer to have her permanent, I realize that having her as a summon is the best choice. Maybe a little compromise to make everyone happy could be rising the time the summon remains on the battlefield, and granting her the ability to switch weapons permanently, and not temporary through skill. But I'm certainly sure you'll make the best choice about it :)

Gnomi

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #32 am: 9. Okt 2015, 18:01 »
Zitat
But I'm certainly sure you'll make the best choice about it :)

Hopefully... :D We can never be completely sure if our integration is the best or perhaps really bad.^^
I also doesn't hate Tauriel (and afaik most of the team agree on that). Tauriel for herself is a really great character and was a great counterpart to Thranduil. I just dislike the love story. She could have been a great character like Lurtz, but even then I think that a summon would fit better.^^ But in the end it's also a personal preference how much weight you put on which argument. :)

ThorinsNemesis

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #33 am: 9. Okt 2015, 18:08 »
Yeah, I'd also like Tauriel as a permanent hero and being able to switch weapons permanently, as for me it would be more fun to play her and Mirkwood this way. But it's your mod, and the decision is yours.

"A darkness is coming... It will spread to every corner of the land!"

aminetude

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #34 am: 10. Okt 2015, 13:42 »
hi i already wrote this as suggestion, but i was told i should discuss it here in the voting poll, so here it is :

many people want tauriel as summon, and many others want her as recruitable, i myself liked her a lot, i even liked the love trianlge ( it didnt disturb me at all ), but i tought she should remain a summon for many reasons ( that i already stated in the voting poll page 1 ), anyway i frankly didnt mention another important reason, that i want the edain 4.2 patch as early as i can, and as she is now already a summon it wouldnt delay the release whilst changing her to recruitable may take more time, but now i realised that time doesnt matter, edain team are going yo give us a perfect mod, and i will wait for it all the way.
now back to my suggestion, i know tauriel wondered beyond the realm of mirkwood, disobeying thranduil, but she got a friendly relation with legolas, so i think, that maybe legolas can summon her, just as thorin summons kili and fili, and that way the people that dont like her just dont have to use legolas ability summon, whilst those who like her can get her an a non-direct hero ( but she will be permenant summon )
but in order for legolas to summon her, we must remove one of his abilities, and i remembered legolas is going to be a mass slayer, and the only less useless ability he got, is his farsight ( at level 5),  i know some may want to know the position of the enemy, but i remembered galadriel already got sight of the seer ( at level 5 too, wich reveals a permenant area of the map ), so the farsight can be replaced by tauriel summon, wich is summoned at his level to aid him.
but wait even if the edain team made this summon ability for legolas, now that ring power ( wich was summon tauriel and the border guards) must be replaced too, so i tought about the aid from rivendell, a summon with arwen and 2 dunedain rangers, it would very lore perfect that arwen comes to help her grandmother ( galadriel ) with some few dunedain rangers ( or some imladris units )
this way i think it would be good for all the fans, because always some will like her a summon whilst other won't and they will never be happy, i think this is the solution for it, if you dont want tauriel dont use legolas' ability, if you do you can get her as permenant after recruiting legolas :)
now this was just a suggestion, if you dislike it i will understand  ;)
Such is the nature of evil, in time all foul things come forth.

ThorinIIoakenshield

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #35 am: 10. Okt 2015, 14:32 »
Or perhaps,you can uese elven gifts to make her permanent

Gnomi

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #36 am: 10. Okt 2015, 14:38 »
Ealendril commented that already:
This would lead to you haveing Tauriel non-stop. She dies? Just summon her again without any downtime for free without loosing anything!

So we have already declined that.

aminetude

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #37 am: 10. Okt 2015, 14:45 »
Or perhaps,you can uese elven gifts to make her permanent
yes it would be good, but as ealendril said, it wont be faire, since she can be summoned again just after being killed, but the suggestion i talked about earlier may be practical, but actually i have no problem with her to be a summon or recruitable, i dont even know why people are fighting about her ? i mean she isnt like a main hero like galadriel & celeborn or thranduil wish absence will be very unpleasant. but anyway i already made a suggestion, and probably someone in the distant future may make a hero submod and integrate it, but i really have no problem with tauriel as summon or permenant, i would be happy just to her in game, you must know that the fans of iron hills were even more sad than us about the iron hills units from movie, but they accepted it in the end, so i just advice the people to accept edain team's choice, after all they are the one that knows game balance most :)
Such is the nature of evil, in time all foul things come forth.

cate.lihane@gmail.com

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #38 am: 11. Okt 2015, 00:34 »
I love Peter Jackson movies . Thanks to him I learned about Tolkien books and  read these books. I know that Jacksons Innovations in films are not canonical, but Tauriel has become one of my favorite characters. I've been playing for 5 years in your mod, and all of your ideas a masterpiece, but only a temporary solution of Tauriel... I was disappointed.
I know that the team Edain is working on balance of the mod. I know that there are a lot of haters of Tauriel. But she is also has a lot of fans and not all of them know about this forum.
It's a shame when there are no one of the principal characters of the trilogy like Tauriel, and Rúmil and Orofin, which appeared on 1 second in the movie, are there in the mod.

Walküre

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #39 am: 11. Okt 2015, 01:39 »

It wouldn't be really fair reducing everything to a matter of fans against haters of Tauriel.

I personally like indeed Tauriel as a character, but, if we actually consider the balance and the structure of the whole Lothlórien/Mirkwood faction, we will find that a permanent implementation of her might cause serious issues concerning heroes' roles, effective usefulness and lore accuracy.

Gnomi

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #40 am: 11. Okt 2015, 09:38 »
@ cate.lihane@gmail.com:
Just read what i've written a few comments above:
http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31867.msg413553.html#msg413553

As Walküre said it's not "haters vs lovers of Tauriel".
I've also heard from many people who liked Tauriel, but (!) they think that a summon fits better to her.

DrHouse93

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #41 am: 11. Okt 2015, 12:09 »
Just thought to a nice implementation of Tauriel, which could then be a mix between the temporary and the permanent summon. What if she can be recruited with a special skill for Legolas? (which would replace his "farsight" skill. Why that one? Because Lorien already has a farsight skill through Galadriel, and making another one would be repetitive and OP)

So this is my idea. Legolas can summon Tauriel at level 5, but she wouldn't be a normal hero. She would be a "slave" hero (similar to Wormtongue with Corrupted Theoden), which attacks enemies with her bow and, when Legolas uses his daggers, she will use them too. If Legolas dies, then Tauriel can be used normally, but to revive Legolas she has to die, too (this is a similar system the team would use for the new likely Erebor scout: http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31881.0.html)
Therefore, when Legolas dies, Tauriel can take on his role (mass slayer with hero killer aspects) but of course to a lesser degree (lower values and overall damage of her skills). This way her role wouldn't be repetitive and she could be recruited in an appropriate way (through Legolas, because, as aminetude mentioned, she was a very close friend with Legolas. So I think it's more appropriate to recruit her through him, rather than with a spell, which can be used even if Legolas isn't on the battlefield yet, thus giving Tauriel an unlikely connection to Lorien)

Concerning the spellbook summon, it can remain unchanged (it would summon some Mirkwood Guards nonetheless), or it may be replaced by some healing spell. What do you think about it?
« Letzte Änderung: 11. Okt 2015, 12:19 von DrHouse93 »

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #42 am: 11. Okt 2015, 13:53 »
If the Team really uses that System for Erebor Scout I just do not think they will agree to use simillar one with any other Hero,because they like unique things and if more than one Hero has it,well it no longer be unique at least thats what I think! :)

I really think Tauriel is fine as a Summon but with little more Time and Weapon Toggle(not a skill) and few more Abilities! :)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

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Walküre

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #43 am: 11. Okt 2015, 14:28 »

As Dáin already wrote above, a similar system to the one of the possible new Erebor's Scout Hero wouldn't be unique anymore.
Also, despite this important issue, I honestly don't like this kind of implementation of Tauriel at all, for more than one reason.

1. Legolas, both in his previous life and in the War of the Ring, has always been a very 'independent' hero and 'complete' on his own, with iconic abilities and a strong characterisation as a free and quite 'untamed' nature-type hero; someone that (as we saw in LOTR and the Hobbit) could easily fight in Mirkwood, Rohan and Gondor without a radical change or modification of its nature or general style.
And this is well reflected in the BFME games, where Legolas has abilities primarily focused on himself only.
It thus wouldn't be appropriate, I think, making a comparison or analogy (even the slightest) with a definitely not independent hero like Cursed Théoden, or Dwarves that are part of a Company and necessarily bound to each other.

2. Before being a friend/beloved one of Legolas, Tauriel is the Chief of the border Guards of Mirkwood, and this aspect should rightly be the priority in a military-based game, with her fighting alongside her soldiers.

3. The free spirit of Tauriel is very well shown in the current summoning spell, as she can appear from nowhere (let's say that she unexpectedly appears from the dark Woods of her Realm) with her Guards.

4. Via the current implementation, we have the possibility of hearing the evocative and iconic sound of the Horn of Mirkwood, which rightly marks the difference between Mirkwood itself and Lothlórien.
Also, I am very fond of this particular sound for a couple of other reasons...  :P

5. Finally, I strongly believe that there could and should be other possible smart and unique ways of implementing a hero, and not necessarily including everyone as a permanent hero than can be recruited anytime and anywhere in your Castle or Ourpost.
And, in this case, the summoning option has definitely proven to be the most suitable one, I guess, instead of your quite complicated Life-Death boundary to Legolas.

Saluti  :)
« Letzte Änderung: 11. Okt 2015, 14:57 von DieWalküre »

Ealendril der Dunkle

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Re: Poll: Tauriel in Edain Patch 4.2
« Antwort #44 am: 11. Okt 2015, 18:34 »
The poll has now been closed after a known Moddb user created around 16 accounts in order to influence the result in his desired direction (Tauriel as permanent). The current result is:
Tauriel as permanent (45.5%)
Tauriel as summoned (54.5%)

We do not know how much the result was influenced, but it was definitely influenced toward "Tauriel as permanent". We accept the result as it is and want to thank all users who voted and discussed in this thread.
The result shows that we are right with our concept and Tauriel remains as summoned in the spellbook.

It was a very interesting experience for us and we will certainly launch similar polls someday again. But in the ende it is very frustrating that some people can't accept that other people have a different opinion then them and influence such polls according to theyre wishes.