Discussing Isengard features

[Odysseus]

Hello gents,

I have a few thoughts of mine I would like to discuss with you guys regarding some of Isengard's features. I'll give some thoughts of my own which will be in the spoiler tags underneath the corresponding point, but it is mostly to see what you guys think of them.

The points are:

1. Wildmen of Dunland with torches. Should all Wildmen have access to torches, without researching an upgrade, for 200-300 per upgrade?

Personally, I do not completely agree with this. The torches are cheap and they inflict a ton of damage once you amass a horde of wildmen. On top of that, it is immediately available, there is no research to be done.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wildmen are the only units currently in the mod that do not need to research a general upgrade before upgrading their battalions with a damage improving upgrade (excluding thus heroes).

2. How often do you use Wildmen Axe Throwers? Are they needed? Finally, does it make sense for them to steal resources from long range?

I am aware that Wildmen are really important early game, to steal resources and cheap units to spam besides your Uruk-hai scouts, but the torches, especially the axe throwers, turn them into really devastating units early to mid-game and they even steal resources on top of that.
I am fine with the wildmen of Dunland having access to torches since they have to get in close and risk their low HP for stealing resources and heavily damaging enemy buildings as is their role in the mod, but the axe throwers are, to me, not only a copy of Angmar's axe throwers, but also make little sense by stealing resources from range. How they do this? Do they possess some kind of force?
Finally, it makes Wildmen of Dunland obsolete since you can forego them and steal resources from range and do extra damage. Yes, Wildmen are cheaper than axe throwers, but ranged damage is much more efficient in the long-run.

3. The Uruk Captain, is it a fair purchase? You invest quite a bit into it, 800 for the general research, (600 for banner carrier research and upgrade in total) + 400 for the Uruk Captain = 1200 at best and 1800 at worst. However, it promotes the squad instantly from level 2 to level 5.

I'm not really sure where I stand on this one. One game, I think it is a very useful and near crucial upgrade to do well in late game against veteran troops, since Isengard do not get any Hero battalions or Elite battalions like Royal Guard of Rohan or Dol Amroth Swan Knights, Khazad-Dum veterans etc. However, the other game I am thinking about how massive it actually sounds. You get to instantly upgrade them from Level 2 to 5. And those that already have a banner carrier by performing well in combat, can get them even quicker. On top of that, it makes Saruman waste his experience boost slot in the long run even though Wizard Blast stays relevant through the entire match as a comparison. The fact that you have to do extensive research and investment to get access to the Uruk captain does balances it out, to a decent degree anyway, but it seems quite strong. I say 50/50, give or take.

4. Saruman the Cursed and The Blessed. What do you think about their performance and mechanics? Which one is better according to you and are they fair in your eyes?

We all know how strong Ring Heroes are. They are the epitome of the gameplay experience of BFME and Edain mod. That ''Oh crap'' moment when the enemy has the ring or when you spot Gollum.
However, I think it is questionable as to where the ring heroes stand. I mean, if you get the ring, should you win the game? Or not? You have to take the chances into consideration I think. Anyway, I am convinced that ET did a great job with most heroes, but some heroes are a little over the top. Saruman with the ring being one of them.

The Blessed is less difficult to face since his attacks are still strong and have a good speed, however, they don't have massive AOE, except the Thunderstorm, but they require Saruman to be either stationary or to be very close to his enemies like with the Burning Sky, which still involves a decent amount of risks as Saruman does not have the most health of the Ring Heroes.

Saruman The Cursed, however, is another story. He can boosts his troops around him to crazy proportions, boost his economy to beyond crazy proportions, has a Firestorm that keeps firing until all selected units die. Although already impressive, his standard attack and the speed of the Fireballs is what makes him over the top for me. His standard attack becomes his Level 5 Fireball, with massive AOE and damage, which instantly makes him surpass his blessed counterpart firing at a slightly slower rate than Saruman The Blessed. I do think this one is better with all his abilities and his main attack.
The mechanic between the Cursed and the Blessed is interesting to say the least. I love how Edain team strives for unique characteristics for each faction, as most of us do, but adding more stuff always lead to more difficulties in balancing. On an unrelated note, I had a suggestion for possibly making this mechanic a bit more dynamic, but that is again for another thread.

If any new points come up, I will update the OP again.

I look forward to hear what you have to say!

[Melkor Bauglir]

Are wildmen really that scary? If you really produce them en masse and also give them torches, they are actually pretty expensive and in the LG an uruk army is definitely stronger. Therefore I kind of think, that nerfing this unit (which are btw entirely designed to raid economy and destroy weak buildings) would just make them redundant alltogether because then you would imediately build uruks.
Again for the archers: Due to them not having any discount, they are normally equal or even more expensive then crossbows, I don't really wan't those guys nerfed. I would never build an army in later stages of the game out of them and the torches give them a nice transition into this part of the game.
And for the captain: First of all it's unique and fits perfectly Isengard's "perfection" mechanic. If you can just buy this upgrade without thinking of the costs, that's probably a sign of the massive overproduction the current economy does possess. I sincerely hope the economy gets severely reworked and nerfed in later stages of the game so such a "luxury problem" where you literally upgrade everyone with everything is very much solved.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: Doesn't this belong into the Isengard section? Also considering your Rohan ideas are located in the Rohan section.

[The_Necromancer0]

I can't say much since I don't play Isengard that much, but what I do think is that:

1. Yes, I feel putting a restriction on it will weaken Isengards's early game, although if you make the unit upgrade cheaper and then force the player to research it in a wildmen barrack it could balance it out. The player will have to spend time and money to get the upgrade unlocked but it will be cheaper to upgrade the battalions.

2. Wildmen axe throwers are definitely a pivotal point of the Isengard strategy. The few time I played Isengard I spammed tons of axe men because they are cheap and pretty good in mass. Also: definitely, makes more sense that they don't steal resources from far away. While that would as you say weaken the already weak early game of Isengard on the long run it would be something less to look at and have to modify.

3.I think it's worth it, however i agree that it is annoying that it means one spot of Saruman's palantir is taken. I think what is expected is that the player can use the power to get the troops lv 2 and then use the uruk captain essentially skipping the banner carrier.

4. I haven't played enough Saruman to judge that. Sauron ,on the other hand,.....

[Odysseus]

@Melkor Bauglir & The_Necromancer0

Thank you for your feedback gentlemen, I appreciate it.

I put this in the discussion section as I am not really suggesting anything concrete. It's just a few circling thoughts of mine and I thought it would make for good discussion material.
I don't necessarily say these things need to change, they are just things that sparked my interest.

Kind regards.

EDIT: Skeeverboy's recently posted replay is an interesting example regarding the massive hordes of Wildmen. Check it out! (Ps, also another example why Gandalf's Word of Power is not powerful enough, since it cannot even kill Wildmen properly as you will see in the replay.)

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

I sincerely hope the economy gets severely reworked and nerfed in later stages of the game

It's being worked on

On topic: I agree with Melkor when it comes to the axethrowers. Committing to them delays your teching quite a bit, which leaves you vulnerable to cavalry since you have no access to pikes. They are not as cheap as you might think and don't make normal wildmen obsolete at all, since their price doesn't hurt your economy as much. They are more efficient at what they do, while axethrowers in masses are more effective. This difference is actually very important, since the role of wildmen is usually to buy time for Isengard to get Uruks. They don't need to be as strong as possible and beat the opponent's forces head on (you have Uruks for that), but to harass the enemy with as little investment as possible.

[Odysseus]

I also thought about something like that. An active ability for Wulfgar, to instantly equip all Wildmen in a medium to large radius near him with torches. It could be an interesting alternative .

Either way, I guess it is fine. I just am not too fond of seeing an upgrade without global research first on regular units.

[The_Necromancer0]

I also thought about something like that. An active ability for Wulfgar, to instantly equip all Wildmen in a medium to large radius near him with torches. It could be an interesting alternative .

+1

[Ealendril der Dunkle]

I also thought about something like that. An active ability for Wulfgar, to instantly equip all Wildmen in a medium to large radius near him with torches. It could be an interesting alternative .

Interesting, this is something similar that we have already included for Wulfgar in the next patch 4.2. We reworked his ability-set a little bit and now he is able (with his level 10 ability) to equip every Wildmen with heavy armour.

[Adrigabbro]

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! 

Concerning other matters, I definitely agree with Melkor about Uruk captains, their uniqueness and how it should be something really expensive. Well said.
As for Saruman the Blessed/Cursed, I think both are extremely strong if not overpowered. Well, of course ring heroes are overpowered, but Saruman is the only one who is as strong as Sauron with the ring, and I don't believe that should be the case for anyone, perhaps for Galadriel. I'm not exactly sure what is so strong with him: his ranged are of effect with knockback and massive damage basic attacks or his abilities. 

[Odysseus]

Interesting to hear that!

I thought about perhaps combining incinerate and his +100% damage against buildings (I forgot the name...Rage?) into 1 ability where he equips himself with a torch increasing his damage against buildings by 100% for the duration and equipping all his wildmen permanently with torches, or temporarily with torces as well. Although, this probably needs to go in the suggestions thread.

[Gandalf The Gray]

i think the skill of fireballs of saruman that kills every unit is a bug however i think saruman is ok as he is he can be killed easily and i think with the ring he should be powerful as he is in edain mod

[Melkor Bauglir]

I thought about perhaps combining incinerate and his +100% damage against buildings (I forgot the name...Rage?) into 1 ability where he equips himself with a torch increasing his damage against buildings by 100% for the duration and equipping all his wildmen permanently with torches, or temporarily with torces as well. Although, this probably needs to go in the suggestions thread.

If this means losing torches as a normal upgrade, I suggest to rethink this: The idea behind wildmen is to be cheap, fairly tech-independant raid units. If you bind the torches to Wulfgar they essentially require about 1000 (I don't know the exact price to be honest) just for getting torches at all. This would kind of contradict the reasons why torches exist in the first place, because the more time and money you invest in wildmen instead of Uruks, upgrades, heroes and other tech, the further away your LG gets which is Isengard's goal to begin with.
Also it would interestingly inspire a second problem: Torches cost 300 per purchase, Wulfgar just 1000. If you plan to keep them available for when they are relevant (meaning early in the game), this would require them to be a level 1 spell for Wulfgar. And this could very well backfire if you have so many free upgrades for your disposal.

In my opinion, torches are at a perfect place right now: They are available without any tech, making them easy to build, but pretty expensive, making them difficult to mass -especially if you consider the poor fighting value of wildmen compared to Uruks. Thus in the grand scheme of things, this upgrade is unique in being an EG-upgrade which can be used immediately, but falls of hard if the game goes on.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Odysseus]

Hmm yes, good points also. Although what I suggested also does have its advantages, I think.

For instance:
1. You only need to pay 1000 once and get him to level 3 for his *newly combined* rage and torch ability. After that, it is a question of keeping Wulfgar alive and you can basically negate the 300 resource cost and the research time cost for torches each time you would have researched them, which could surely provide to be useful in whatever stage of the game if you get Wulfgar to level 3.

2. It would happen in a medium to large radius instantaneously and I am pretty sure that the element of surprise and those extra units of time gained by its suddeness should provide more bursts of damage than when you can see them coming. Imagine sneaking up in an enemy base and then suddenly popping this new ability, you would have sudden torches everywhere, ready to burn the place down.

3.The addition of a Level 10 heavy armour ability will give Wildmen more of a chance to turn into full-fledged troops. I think it would be cool to make Wulfgar the complete package for Wildmen by adding that same ability there. He would be like a Forge on legs for Wildmen  .

4. From a more realistic perspective, Wildmen are rabble, just like orcs. They need a leader to guide them and make them more ''efficient'' in performing their role. It might actually be seen as a buff to Wulfgar. Furthermore, it makes little sense to be throwing torches at enemy units, same for regular Wildmen. You use torches to burn down structures made of wood, roofs of hay and igniting tar and oil etc. I think they should only perform their role against buildings, but I do realise that balance requires otherwise.

That said, I do agree with your points to a certain extent, although I think it would add some more tactfullness to Isengard and require to plan a bit more, instead of just spamming them with torches to deal enough damage. Isengard is already a mass-production faction and some more tactfulness and some tweaks to the economy can surely make the faction a bit more strategic to play.

Either way, that is just what I think at the moment. It might change along the line and we'll see in 4.2 how things have changed .