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Autor Thema: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions  (Gelesen 14272 mal)

Adrigabbro

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #15 am: 12. Nov 2015, 13:33 »
It feels like heroes have become a lot stronger with this update. I'm not sure exactly why, perhaps the health of all units reduced by 20%, the increased resistance to arrows or some bugs (Shagrat/Gorbag ?). Did the heroes lose 20% health aswell?
Whatever, i feel like the reduced health change was welcome, but perhaps 10% would have been enough. I don't like heroes who can solo entire battalions and I think they were in a good position between 4.2.

Still, this new update is really enjoyable (awesome work on Lothlorien!) and I could not very well finish my post on a bad point: I think the new economic system (200 golds in settlements, 400 in the castle, both make you earn the same amount of resources) is perfect. Don't ever change it.  :)


"That still only counts as one!"

aminetude

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #16 am: 15. Nov 2015, 16:04 »
Here it comes:
« Letzte Änderung: 15. Nov 2015, 16:08 von aminetude »
Such is the nature of evil, in time all foul things come forth.

Ealendril der Dunkle

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #17 am: 16. Nov 2015, 17:23 »
Edain Demo 4.2.1 released!

Odysseus

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #18 am: 16. Nov 2015, 21:20 »
The changes sound excellent on paper! Going to try them out as soon as possible, thank you very much ET :).
« Letzte Änderung: 17. Nov 2015, 04:08 von Odysseus »
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Adrigabbro

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #19 am: 16. Nov 2015, 21:27 »
You're god damn right! Downloading right now! :)


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Branchez

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #20 am: 29. Nov 2015, 12:14 »
I feel like heroes are much weaker than before. My Eomer got killed by Grimma, one on one, in just a few seconds. Didn't even get the chance to move him away.

Walküre

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #21 am: 30. Nov 2015, 00:10 »
I feel like heroes are much weaker than before. My Eomer got killed by Grimma, one on one, in just a few seconds. Didn't even get the chance to move him away.


I think that you have already been exhaustively answered in the Ask the Edain Team thread  :)

Heroes' role are something really significant now, and with 'now' I mean since the release of the new Edain Mod 4.0.
Nothing really strict or binding, but surely worthy of being taken into careful consideration.

Isilendil

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #22 am: 4. Mär 2016, 11:55 »
if this is an issue where the mod suggestions for improvement, I have something to say.

1) free of orcs, which are very strong. Ideas - either increase the price of one unit or make standard orcs weaker.

2) Morgul Orcs, I think you and know that they are losing the battle in 1x1 standard orcs.

3) Mirkwood warriors losing in battle to standard elves. But I noticed that next to Thranduil, mikrwood warriors are stronger. If the effect applies only to Mirkwood army, then it's okay. The solution - make the army of Mirkwood immediately available, without upgrades in the fortress of Mirkwood.

4) Nazgul. I noticed that you have strengthened equestrian heroes and now they press a lot stronger than before, and for the Nazgul's too good, given its low cost. Not only that the orcs of Mordor free, so also can be purchased for 1100 Nazgul, which can sit on a horse and crush the large army of swordsmen and archers of the enemy.

5) The Departed. In Rohan, Theoden is a time to do practical superstrong army of apostates, for this you need to put farmers in a heap. Correct, make up to two units or even one, with increased time.

6) Skill in the book of spells dwarves for 5 points on a temporary neuzyavimost after death. Gnomes pakticheski invulnerable when fighting near the fountain and is superstrong.

7) Singer. They have a very good effect, and that's fine, but the one I was very concerned about the effect of this effect, which does not fall closest troops, even from the cavalry of Rohan. In practice, if the elves are several singers, then there is no chance of Rohan. Solution - remove this effect, and the others leave. Proof - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bv4cdhz81k

Maraelion

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #23 am: 4. Mär 2016, 16:40 »
Dear Isilendil,
Zitat
free of orcs, which are very strong. Ideas - either increase the price of one unit or make standard orcs weaker.

Free orcs belong to the iconical parts oft BfME. There was no ploblem with them in the unmodded BfME and there is none in EM. Keep in mind that they cannot get any upgrades. Furthermore, the free orcs are balanced over their recruitment time and also the higher costs for Mordor heroes.

Zitat
2) Morgul Orcs, I think you and know that they are losing the battle in 1x1 standard orcs.

This has to be an error because Morgul orcs have the same stats as the normal ones and in addition to that they are fearless and wear heavy armor.
If they really lose, that has to be a bug.

Zitat
3) Mirkwood warriors losing in battle to standard elves. But I noticed that next to Thranduil, mikrwood warriors are stronger. If the effect applies only to Mirkwood army, then it's okay. The solution - make the army of Mirkwood immediately available, without upgrades in the fortress of Mirkwood.

Mirkwood warriors belong to a completely different kind of infantry than the Lorien ones, as it was already explained to you. You should not compare them in 1vs1. Mirkwood soldiers are a defensive, static infantry with a wonderful formation to keep your archers safe to deal heavy damage. Lorien soldiers can deal a good amount of damage on there own, while they cannot hold a battle line for long time.

Zitat
Nazgul. I noticed that you have strengthened equestrian heroes and now they press a lot stronger than before, and for the Nazgul's too good, given its low cost. Not only that the orcs of Mordor free, so also can be purchased for 1100 Nazgul, which can sit on a horse and crush the large army of swordsmen and archers of the enemy.

Well an army withoud spearmen is worthless. Thats your problem. A single unit of Tower Guards is enough to kill a mounted Nazgûl. And the standard spearmen can do it as well, especially in their porcupine formation. Moreover the Nazgûl highly depend on Saurons level and cannot level on their own.

Zitat
5) The Departed. In Rohan, Theoden is a time to do practical superstrong army of apostates, for this you need to put farmers in a heap. Correct, make up to two units or even one, with increased time.

Keep in mind that they only stay for a limited time. That is their biggest weakness.

Zitat
6) Skill in the book of spells dwarves for 5 points on a temporary neuzyavimost after death. Gnomes pakticheski invulnerable when fighting near the fountain and is superstrong.

This spell will be reworked in the next version.

Zitat
Singer. They have a very good effect, and that's fine, but the one I was very concerned about the effect of this effect, which does not fall closest troops, even from the cavalry of Rohan. In practice, if the elves are several singers, then there is no chance of Rohan. Solution - remove this effect, and the others leave.

The singers have no direct damage, a weak armor and low health. They can be killed rapidly. So if you do not want to let them sing, take them down with your special missile attacks (Eomer, Eowyn, Gamling). Each unit in this game has strenghtes and weakneses. Dame goes with the singers who are a really good support unit, but are also extremely vunerable to ennemy attacks.

In my opinion there is no change needed for any of your points, but your will to improve the mod is always welcome!

Greetings
Maraelion

Mogat

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #24 am: 4. Mär 2016, 17:24 »
Ok, now I acually MUST say something myself:

1) Mordor IS overpowered in this Version of Edain, there is no sence to deny it. Orks are currently far too strong for them being a free unit. 1-2 Units of Orks are already enough to kill for instance a lorien-sword-batallion (!!!) and this is only one of many examples.
Nazgul are far to strong as well considering trampling. They barely slow down while trampling and do insane damage to units. Even spearmen slow them down barely.
(And acually: all mordor heroes are currently more than worth their price)

--> Fact is: Mordor is pretty hard op in this version and as far as I know all of these problems are realized by the team and will be fixed in the next version of the Edain Mod.

2) Concerning singers. Yes the songs are strong, especially with three singers. But the main problem I see is the following:
It is very hard to counter/kill those singers, especially with rohan. If they come into melee-range --> yes, no problem, they can be killed by swordsmen. The only problem is: a good player NEVER lets a singer get into melee combat. If they are held behind the army and sing they song from behind, even archers can reach them barely.

And the funny thing is: Eomers and Eowyns spearthrow pulls them about 1/10 of their health. Why? Idk. So my solution simply would be to make them a little more vulnerable to arrows/range.

I am in fact wondering if you Maraelion are playing the Edain Mod in multiplayer, because balance is always oriented in competative play in multiplayer.

Concerning the mirkwood-units, the traitors of rohan I agree with what maraelion said.


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Maraelion

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #25 am: 4. Mär 2016, 17:30 »
Yes I do, but neither regularly nor on a high niveau. So if you are a competitive player and this is your experience, I respect that, rhough I have no problems with Mordor.
But well, perhaps, my friends are not good enough.
Greetings
Maraelion

Hamanathnath

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #26 am: 4. Mär 2016, 17:55 »
Just to clarify Mogat, the reason why Lothlorien Swordsmen lose to Orc Warriors is not because of the Orcs.  Lothlorien Warriors health and armor is just not high enough.  This was discussed in the Lothlorien Balance Discussion Here: http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32109.120.html

It is also mentioned there that Nerfing orcs would make Mordor's early game extremely weak to factions such as Gondor, so I would recommend reading that before saying that orcs need to be nerfed.  If you still think Orcs are too strong, that fine, it's your opinion.  Just want to show that this problem has been addressed.

Concerning Nazgul though, I agree that their trample is too powerful.  It should be made worse, but I remember that in version 4.2, it was too weak, which is why it is much stronger now.  So a middle ground would be nice.

I will agree Mordor needs to get nerfed a little, but the orcs in my opinion are not the problem.  The amount of buffs and debuffs available to Mordor, the strength of the Nazgul and all the other heroes (except Mollock), and other small things such as cheap defensive upgrades, are the reasons why Mordor are a bit too strong. 
« Letzte Änderung: 4. Mär 2016, 18:01 von Hamanathnath »

Mogat

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #27 am: 4. Mär 2016, 18:22 »
Do you realise how many options there are to balance something? I stated, that orks have a too high damage output for the fact that they are free units. How to balance it is another cup of tea. You can make their recruitment time longer once more, you can increase their health but reduce their damage, you can increase their commandpoint-cost.
All I said, were things concerning the orks, lorien swordsmen I took only as an example. Orks are so versitile and so strong, that they can dominate in every matchup with prober skill and proper hero/cirith ungol support.
--> Nerfing only the heroes or only the defence-mechanisms is like fighting the symptoms of a disease.

Another important point is the following: Such a specific unit like the ork warrior with one extreme strenght (which is its cost of 0 Ressources) can't be designed to be strong in all phases of the game. At the moment it is though which results in it being pretty strong.
But actually I don't want to discuss this topic in the feedback-thread. I think the team is fully aware of orks current strenghts and possibilites to regulate them.


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Odysseus

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #28 am: 4. Mär 2016, 19:45 »
In the internal, we are already testing an overall decrease of damage by 10% for all free orcs (Dol Guldur, Minas Morgul, and most importantly, default orcs). Either the heroes are nerfed, or the free orcs are nerfed, because we all agree that Mordor is too strong at the moment and that the reason is the combination of free orcs that are too effective for their lack of cost or Mordor's overperforming heroes. To me, Mordor's heroes are much more important than free orcs, which should get replaced eventually by better free orcs, so making orcs weaker to compensate for Mordor's more cost-effective heroes seemed the more logical alternative of the two, from my perspective.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Hamanathnath

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Re: Edain Demo 4.2 - Your Impressions
« Antwort #29 am: 4. Mär 2016, 20:07 »
In the internal, we are already testing an overall decrease of damage by 10% for all free orcs (Dol Guldur, Minas Morgul, and most importantly, default orcs). Either the heroes are nerfed, or the free orcs are nerfed, because we all agree that Mordor is too strong at the moment and that the reason is the combination of free orcs that are too effective for their lack of cost or Mordor's overperforming heroes. To me, Mordor's heroes are much more important than free orcs, which should get replaced eventually by better free orcs, so making orcs weaker to compensate for Mordor's more cost-effective heroes seemed the more logical alternative of the two, from my perspective.
I see your logic, and realize that 10% isn't that much, considering how low the damage of Orcs is already.  But I would strongly recommend Nerfing the things that are way too powerful, for example Nazgul trample, before making a significant change to Orcs.  Good to know this is being looked at carefully.